Does God exist? (6 Viewers)

[Drsoccerball]

The measure of "religiousness" is different from religion to religion. Being religious, does not equate with being mature, faithful, more spiritual in every religion mentioned.

A religious Muslim would never call himself religious. We must humble ourselves in every possible circumstance. And also like someone mentioned a devout Muslim wouldn't be in a bar.

 

[dan964]

A religious Muslim would never call himself religious. We must humble ourselves in every possible circumstance. And also like someone mentioned a devout Muslim wouldn't be in a bar.

yes, do you mean a devout Muslim as opposed to a religious Muslim.
and in Christianity it is similar.

Being a religious Christian is not the same as being a real/genuine Christian. The latter is just some who does all the rituals, goes to church etc., does religion; in an effort to earn God's mercy. The latter, actually holds strongly to the beliefs because of God's mercy (also known as grace). Because genuine Christianity is like the latter, there is actually no grounds for Christians to brag or boast.

But yes, I can see what you mean.

 

[dan964]

Okay, so the claim would be that Islam and all other "monotheistic" religions copied Zoroastrianism. First to start off we have to consider the fact that God sent a messenger/one who warns to every people to teach the religion of God and to also warn them of consequences if they are ignorant and deny etc... This is so that they can't say "we wern't warned," like many try to say after a test. (We can see this in normal exams were if they're not taught something they would think they would be unjustly treated.)

And therin they will cry aloud: "O our Lord! Take us out, we will do good, (righteous deeds), not (the wrong) we use to do before," "Did We not grant you a life long enough for whoever would reflect and be mindful to reflect and be mindful? In addition, a warner came to you(to warn against this punishment). Taste then (the consequences of your heedlessness); for the wrongdoers have none to help them (against it)." 35:37

You going to have a lot more groundwork to establish some of the statements you make. Examining Mohammed's life and thinks he said, as according to the Haddiths does not produce a compelling case for him being a messenger from God. The Quran itself does not provide a compelling case either...

DrSoccerball said:
"God sent down only one religion but allowed it to be changed by humans because it was only meant for those people and that specific time period. (While leaving the religion in its complete form when humanity was ready for its message AKA Islam. This is the Islam (we believe) that all the Holy prophets followed.(Dan would disagree).)"

So it is very possible that this religion was sent down by God so it may show some similarities like Islam shows with Christianity. But since we don't know for certain we can't claim it to be the case. Also according what Dan said it can also be disputed.

<1> You said: "God sent down only one religion but allowed it to be changed by humans because it was only meant for those people and that specific time period." Of course I do disagree, as would every other Christian. How is what you are saying any different from what the Ba'hai people believe for instance? The same logic could be applied to Islam, it is a very slippery slope. Just be careful... Mind you, Mormons also believe what you just said to be true, except their "prophet" is Joseph Smith not Mohammed.

<2> There is a massive discontinuity between Judaism/Christianity and Islam. While Judaism and Christianity are clearly related, there is no engagement within Islam, with any of the major tenants of these older "revelations", with of course the exception of Jesus' death which the Quran denies; and secondly, there only be one unitarian God.

Continuing on that... it seems very unusual that the Quran would quote sometimes non-inspired and sometimes non-canonical, a mix of apocryphal and pseudigraphic texts such as the Midrash, Talmud or the Arabic Infancy Gospels (non-canonical second century texts, that are non-canonical), which is reasonable for me*, but maybe not for you, but never actually quotes the Old Testament or New Testament directly, even though it . It is odd, very peculiar, that the author of the Quran (whoever that may be), would be familiar with the non-canonical and sometimes heretical texts, but not actually with the canonical and orthodox texts, particularly the Law and the Prophets.

(*yes the Bible quotes the book of Enoch, Jasher and other non-canonical texts, but makes no mention or does not act as if these books are inspired)

And I don't think you answered his question very well, but okay.

 

[T-R-O-L-O-L]

these sort of talks almost ALWAYS get out of hand!!!!!

 

[Drsoccerball]

You going to have a lot more groundwork to establish some of the statements you make. Examining Mohammed's life and thinks he said, as according to the Haddiths does not produce a compelling case for him being a messenger from God. The Quran itself does not provide a compelling case either...

I think you get confused with what a Hadith is. It's a saying of the Prophet Muhammad(Sas) that's usually related to what he actually performs. As I said before if he said something and didn't do it himself he would be considered as a hypocrite and his companions would abandon him thinking he's not a messenger but no one did that. Groundwork in what terms? Context? Detail ?

<1> You said: "God sent down only one religion but allowed it to be changed by humans because it was only meant for those people and that specific time period." Of course I do disagree, as would every other Christian. How is what you are saying any different from what the Ba'hai people believe for instance? The same logic could be applied to Islam, it is a very slippery slope. Just be careful... Mind you, Mormons also believe what you just said to be true, except their "prophet" is Joseph Smith not Mohammed.

I don't know about either so I am reluctant to answer.

<2> There is a massive discontinuity between Judaism/Christianity and Islam. While Judaism and Christianity are clearly related, there is no engagement within Islam, with any of the major tenants of these older "revelations", with of course the exception of Jesus' death which the Quran denies; and secondly, there only be one unitarian God.

Note: I will put Bible quotes (the 10 commandments) underlined and Quranic in Bold (Only for identification purposes)

“You shall have no other gods before me."

"And your God is one God! there is no god but He; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful." 2:163

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

"Indeed God does not forgive that partners be associated with Him; kess than that he forgives to whomever He wills. Whoever associates partners with God has indeed strayed far away (from the Straight Path)"4:116

"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

"Your Lord has commanded that you worship none but Him alone, and treat parents with the best of kindness. Should one of them, or both, attain old age in your lifetime, do not say "UGH!" to them (as an indication of complaint or impatience), nor push them away, and address them in gracious words. Lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy, and say: "My Lord, have mercy on them even as they cared for me in my childhood." 17:33-34

“You shall not murder."

"Do not kill any soul, which God has made forbidden, except in just cause..."17:33

“You shall not commit adultery."

"Do not draw near to any unlawful sexual intercourse; surely it is a shameful, indecent thing, and an evil way(leading to individual and social corruption)" 17:32

"You shall not steal."

"...that they will never associate partners with God in any way, and will not steal, and will not commit any illegal sexual act..." 60:12

“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

"Do not confound the truth by mixing it with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know it. 2:42"

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife"

""Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do. "24:32

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy."

" O you who believe! When the call is made for the Prayer on Friday, then move promptly to the rememberance of God( by listening to the sermon and doing the Prayer), and leave off business( and whatever else you may be preoccupied with). This is better for you if you but knew." 62:9 (with the obvious mentions of the Sabbath)

"You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

"To God belongs the All-Beautiful Names, so call and pray to Him by them. And keep aloof from those who Blaspheme (and distort the meaning of) His names. They will be recompensed for what they are doing." 7:180

Continuing on that... it seems very unusual that the Quran would quote sometimes non-inspired and sometimes non-canonical, a mix of apocryphal and pseudigraphic texts such as the Midrash, Talmud or the Arabic Infancy Gospels (non-canonical second century texts, that are non-canonical), which is reasonable for me*, but maybe not for you, but never actually quotes the Old Testament or New Testament directly, even though it . It is odd, very peculiar, that the author of the Quran (whoever that may be), would be familiar with the non-canonical and sometimes heretical texts, but not actually with the canonical and orthodox texts, particularly the Law and the Prophets.

A Jew can also say the say the same about the Quran mentioning the Gospil and like I said we don't believe the Bible at the moment to be in it's pure form.

(*yes the Bible quotes the book of Enoch, Jasher and other non-canonical texts, but makes no mention or does not act as if these books are inspired)

Same as mentioned above.

And I don't think you answered his question very well, but okay.

Well obviously because I'm not as intelligent as you...(No Sarcasm) Furthermore he asked for my opinion and I gave my opinion on it so maybe you just think my opinion is bad no matter how well I explained it which means there's no point discussing?

And I asked him a question and he answered it with a question which I thought didn't even relate to mine so that's some food for thought. Knowing Braintic he'll propose some smart thought probably too complicated for me to understand.

 

[Drsoccerball]

these sort of talks almost ALWAYS get out of hand!!!!!

There is nothing wrong with a friendly discussion. Just as long as I'm not insulting anyone I don't mind what people say to me just as long as we all progress.

 

[Paradoxica]

There is nothing wrong with a friendly discussion. Just as long as I'm not insulting anyone I don't mind what people say to me just as long as we all progress.

That's good. always keep things calm.

Except the one moment I mention I follow a religion created out of satire, things get out of hand. Because, you know, that's just as logical.

 

[Drsoccerball]

That's good. always keep things calm.

Except the one moment I mention I follow a religion created out of satire, things get out of hand. Because, you know, that's just as logical.

I didn't get slightly angry ? Didn't even reply to you

 

[Paradoxica]

I didn't get slightly angry ? Didn't even reply to you

Referring to Dan, not you. You're the modest & humble one.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Referring to Dan, not you. You're the modest & humble one.

Highly disagree...

 

[Paradoxica]

Highly disagree...

Then who?

 

[Drsoccerball]

Then who?

I am the least humble and modest person here ( Wait...does denying that make me humble and modest paradox or?)

 

[Paradoxica]

I am the least humble and modest person here ( Wait...does denying that make me humble and modest paradox or?)

Anddd.... the universe just asploded. again. sigh... time to cleanup the metaphysical mess you've made.

 

[dan964]

I think you get confused with what a Hadith is. It's a saying of the Prophet Muhammad(Sas) that's usually related to what he actually performs. As I said before if he said something and didn't do it himself he would be considered as a hypocrite and his companions would abandon him thinking he's not a messenger but no one did that. Groundwork in what terms? Context? Detail ?


I don't know about either so I am reluctant to answer.




Note: I will put Bible quotes (the 10 commandments) underlined and Quranic in Bold (Only for identification purposes)

“You shall have no other gods before me."

"And your God is one God! there is no god but He; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful." 2:163

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

"Indeed God does not forgive that partners be associated with Him; kess than that he forgives to whomever He wills. Whoever associates partners with God has indeed strayed far away (from the Straight Path)"4:116

"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

"Your Lord has commanded that you worship none but Him alone, and treat parents with the best of kindness. Should one of them, or both, attain old age in your lifetime, do not say "UGH!" to them (as an indication of complaint or impatience), nor push them away, and address them in gracious words. Lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy, and say: "My Lord, have mercy on them even as they cared for me in my childhood." 17:33-34

“You shall not murder."

"Do not kill any soul, which God has made forbidden, except in just cause..."17:33

“You shall not commit adultery."

"Do not draw near to any unlawful sexual intercourse; surely it is a shameful, indecent thing, and an evil way(leading to individual and social corruption)" 17:32

"You shall not steal."

"...that they will never associate partners with God in any way, and will not steal, and will not commit any illegal sexual act..." 60:12

“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

"Do not confound the truth by mixing it with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know it. 2:42"

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife"

""Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do. "24:32

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy."

" O you who believe! When the call is made for the Prayer on Friday, then move promptly to the rememberance of God( by listening to the sermon and doing the Prayer), and leave off business( and whatever else you may be preoccupied with). This is better for you if you but knew." 62:9 (with the obvious mentions of the Sabbath)

"You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

"To God belongs the All-Beautiful Names, so call and pray to Him by them. And keep aloof from those who Blaspheme (and distort the meaning of) His names. They will be recompensed for what they are doing." 7:180



A Jew can also say the say the same about the Quran mentioning the Gospil and like I said we don't believe the Bible at the moment to be in it's pure form.



Same as mentioned above.



Well obviously because I'm not as intelligent as you...(No Sarcasm) Furthermore he asked for my opinion and I gave my opinion on it so maybe you just think my opinion is bad no matter how well I explained it which means there's no point discussing?

And I asked him a question and he answered it with a question which I thought didn't even relate to mine so that's some food for thought. Knowing Braintic he'll propose some smart thought probably too complicated for me to understand.

The Haddith does not produce a compelling case for Mohammed, maybe it does for you, and we'll agree to disagree:
1. A prophet would not be bewitched by magic or sorcery (Bukhari vol 7 book 71, no 660)
2. A prophet sent from God would not make false predictions or release satanic revelations (S. 30:32-34)
(As for ‘a few years’, or, Bida' in Arabic, means three to nine (according to Mujahid and Qatadah).
3. The prophet condoned/committed certain sins
e.g.
> lying e.g. Surah 4:142; Bukkhari, Volume 5, no 369,
I'bn S'ad "Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Volume 2 p.31-32
and the list goes on if you really want.

The Sabbath and Friday prayer are not the same thing. The reason I say that, is the Quran does not engage with the previous revelation in a serious attempt to correct it or refute it, as one would expect it to do, if it as you say it has been corrupted.

Only nowadays, do Muslims scholars engage properly with the Old and New Testaments to refute them. Clearly God should have knowledge of what the previous revelation was, and at least be able to affirm for instance those passages that Muslims like using in the Bible to prove Mohammed.

"Well obviously because I'm not as intelligent as you...(No Sarcasm) Furthermore he asked for my opinion and I gave my opinion on it so maybe you just think my opinion is bad no matter how well I explained it which means there's no point discussing?"

I would disagree, it is that he asked you to answer it without referring to your religion. Yes, I think his question was to stoop anyone who is religious.

Your opinion is still valued, I don't think it is bad, I just disagree with it some of the time, and that is because we operate on different understandings/bases. I am not surprised that the Ten Commandments in vague form appear in the Quran, they are fairly universal. Surah 60:12, also appears to be truncated.

 

[dan964]

I am the least humble and modest person here ( Wait...does denying that make me humble and modest paradox or?)

not it doesn't, because the least humble or modest wouldn't make an effort of saying it. that said you probably are very modest, and so probably is Paradoxica.

Edit 2:
The groundwork you needed is to justify the statement:
"First to start off we have to consider the fact that God sent a messenger/one who warns to every people to teach the religion of God and to also warn them of consequences if they are ignorant and deny etc... This is so that they can't say "we wern't warned," like many try to say after a test. "

Is to actually establish it is a fact, namely that a religious leader is indeed a messenger for God. That means a case for instance for Mohammed as a prophet, without reference to his revelation first. Not only, does that assume the responder has a similar understanding of God, which in the case of me might be ok, but not for pastafarians for instance.

 

[dan964]

Referring to Dan, not you. You're the modest & humble one.

Hardly angry. Some people use pastafarianism as a tool to mock religion, which a bit annoys me, as does going a bit overboard something with being satirical. You don't seem to be one of those people, to go over the top with it.

"Although adherents describe Pastafarianism as a genuine religion, it is generally seen by the media as a parody religion"

 

[Paradoxica]

Hardly angry. Some people use pastafarianism as a tool to mock religion, which a bit annoys me, as does going a bit overboard something with being satirical. You don't seem to be one of those people, to go over the top with it.

"Although adherents describe Pastafarianism as a genuine religion, it is generally seen by the media as a parody religion"

The media... which media? Fox News? (lol)

But yes, I can see why that may be an issue, but satire is unavoidable when you have such...emotionally triggering... topics at hand.

 

[T-R-O-L-O-L]

There is nothing wrong with a friendly discussion. Just as long as I'm not insulting anyone I don't mind what people say to me just as long as we all progress.

Good way to put it!

 

[dan964]

Good way to put it!

Friendly discussion is great

 

[Drsoccerball]

The Haddith does not produce a compelling case for Mohammed, maybe it does for you, and we'll agree to disagree:
1. A prophet would not be bewitched by magic or sorcery (Bukhari vol 7 book 71, no 660)
2. A prophet sent from God would not make false predictions or release satanic revelations (S. 30:32-34)
(As for ‘a few years’, or, Bida' in Arabic, means three to nine (according to Mujahid and Qatadah).
3. The prophet condoned/committed certain sins
e.g.
> lying e.g. Surah 4:142; Bukkhari, Volume 5, no 369,
I'bn S'ad "Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Volume 2 p.31-32
and the list goes on if you really want.

The hadith shows an example of how the Quran should be read, understood and implemented. So to say it has no value is kind of...

"The prophet committed certain sins."
Id like some quotations and examples... Also you mentioned that he condoned lying? If he condoned it that must mean he practised it himself? Even the worst of his enemies called him the most trustworthy... that was what he was known as and to say he lied or condoned lying is wrong.

In regards to 4:142 "The hypocrites would trick God whereas it is God who "tricks" them(by causing them to fall into their own traps.) When they rise to do the Prayer, they rise lazily, and to be seen by people(to show them that they are Muslims); and they do not remember God (within or outside the Prayer), save a little,"

The word for lying in arabic is kathab which is used no where in this verse. Also trick/ deceit is used because people think they can outsmart God etc... (Don't need to go into to much detail.)

In regards to the hadith in a matter of fighting in war or in conditions it is universally agreed upon that deceit is allowed as long as the person knows that they are at war. I think the UK used this tactic in WWII when Germany intercepted a call saying that they would guard the east of the country and leave the south unguarded and the Germans tapped in and came from the south being greeted by a ton of Brits. I'm not to sure if that was the event my History is bad ... Also it is important to note that at that time there were no peace treaties between the two parties and in that case that automatically meant they were at war. (In that time it's opposite now.)
The man was also recruiting and encouraging enemies towards the Muslims as well as insulting etc... And it is known that people deceive in wars etc...

The Sabbath and Friday prayer are not the same thing. The reason I say that, is the Quran does not engage with the previous revelation in a serious attempt to correct it or refute it, as one would expect it to do, if it as you say it has been corrupted.

Well if you want to take it like that then the Quran mentions in many place the Sabbath that you want to hear. But since that was only for those people and that time(and most likely you'll agree) it doesn't apply for us so its not giving instruction for us to do the Sabbath but it's giving us a similar event like Friday prayer.

Only nowadays, do Muslims scholars engage properly with the Old
and New Testaments to refute them. Clearly God should have knowledge of what the previous revelation was, and at least be able to affirm for instance those passages that Muslims like using in the Bible to prove Mohammed.

"Why didn't the teacher tell us the answers in the test?"

"Well obviously because I'm not as intelligent as you...(No Sarcasm) Furthermore he asked for my opinion and I gave my opinion on it so maybe you just think my opinion is bad no matter how well I explained it which means there's no point discussing?"

I would disagree, it is that he asked you to answer it without referring to your religion. Yes, I think his question was to stoop anyone who is religious.

Your opinion is still valued, I don't think it is bad, I just disagree with it some of the time, and that is because we operate on different understandings/bases. I am not surprised that the Ten Commandments in vague form appear in the Quran, they are fairly universal. Surah 60:12, also appears to be truncated.

I thought logically and came up with a conclusion. What do you mean vague? There are many more verses I didn't quote which mention the Ten commandments more than the chapter in the Bible that it was revealed in.

I can quote the whole thing if you want I just didn't quote it for two reasons,

1) I typed all the quotes
2) People may completely lose the value of the verse and intended purpose in what im addressing if I quoted the whole verse. (Not because I was quoting out of context, it was talking about women swearing allegance and that were the qualities they must have.)