Is law a reasonable pathway to medicine? (2 Viewers)

[Queenroot]

In the end, it's each to their own. Certainly, people do end up falling by the wayside or being disenchanted by the profession. The same happens in other professions, but perhaps the feeling is greater with medicine due to higher expectations placed on its ability to deliver job satisfaction?

I doubt a high ATAR correlates with successful entry into competitive specialties, or even post-graduate performance.

By the way, did you end up going corporate?


GP isn't really the fall-back specialisation it used to be. You still need to go through various exams and a selection process, which is becoming less forgiving. Many people choose it for a number of reasons other than as a fall-back: variety, flexibility/work-life balance, patient contact, business-minded. When people change specialties it usually is a case of changing priorities. For this reason, some people also leave medicine altogether.

What would you say is a specialisation that no one is really interested in, or is lacking? I've read around and sources usually say geriatrics.

 

[Schmeag]

Are there still too many graduates in Medicine for the jobs/placements available similar to what happened with law?

What would you say is a specialisation that no one is really interested in, or is lacking? I've read around and sources usually say geriatrics.

To answer both your questions, there are a few hurdles during training:
Entry into medical school: you probably know more about this than me

Entry into internship: this has been issue for a long time, but affects mainly international students

Entry into a training program: Medman posted a link previously which gives you some idea of how difficult it is to get in to each specialty

Entry into the workforce: after completing specialisation training this gives limited indication as to how easy it might be to get a job

 

[Havox]

Meh. Do one or the other. Doing a law degree with the intention of studying medicine is absurd and useless.

 

[T-R-O-L-O-L]

Meh. Do one or the other. Doing a law degree with the intention of studying medicine is absurd and useless.

Read this to get the full idea if you haven't read the thread:

Not even close turntaker. Let me give you an insight into my situation. I was interested in the science aspect of medicine and the client approach of being a lawyer. At the moment, my results are not high enough to do medicine so I thought of the next most suitable degree which most suit my interest (which happened to be a science/law degree). By doing a law/science degree I hope that if I'm enjoying the law component, I will keep the double degree, however, if I dislike the law degree and realise that it isn't for me, I will only continue with a science degree and then pursue a post grad med degree. Thus, I would rather enter with a law/science degree and drop one of two if I don't like the other, instead of trying to pick up a degree and wondering if I'd like it. I assure you that there is minimal parental input in my decision.

 

[Havox]

Just adding a little more perspective as someone who's made it through to the other side. I started my med degree in 2009 and back then we were concerned regarding the med student tsunami and attaining internship positions for training. When I graduated there were no international students who received a training position. In 5-7 years time I predict that even CSP students will start to miss out. All those years ago we were concerned about attaining college training positions, sure you're guaranteed your PGY1/2 years if you wrangle an internship but even now, any SRMO or registrar positions are highly competitive and people WILL miss out. Now imagine this situation in 5-7 years time. Medicine isn't the guaranteed pathway of employment it used to be and as time goes on it will be decreasingly viable as a choice for tertiary education. Law really is no better, assuming that you want to be a lawyer. To become a practicing lawyer, you study diplomas and masters degrees AFTER you law bachelors and the competition for available positions is even tighter than in medicine. Choose one and commit. If you're not sure, then pick something else.

Edit: Just to add. The poll is meaningless. Unless the voters are medical students or doctors I doubt they have much insight as to how bleak the training situation really is. The answer definitively is NO. If you get multiple med offers, pick the shortest degree. If you're able to get yourself into an accredited college training pathway, do it ASAP because those are drying up.

 

[Schmeag]

Medicine isn't the guaranteed pathway of employment it used to be and as time goes on it will be decreasingly viable as a choice for tertiary education.

TROLOL: There's always been a lot of doom and gloom about the medical workforce and medical training. You're always hearing of people missing out on jobs or failing specialty exams en masse. Positions for geriatrics, for example, are said to have closed up quickly since it was all the rage about 5-7 years ago (which is around when the statistics were current). I'm not sure how true it is as doctors can seem to be naturally pessimistic. At least for the moment, there are plenty of opportunities to forgo a training program remain a Career Medical Officer.

Some view the end of medical school as the end of the journey, but it's really (or not even) the beginning. The onus is always on you to keep learning and up-skilling. I think if you are aware and can accept the workforce-related consequences, it'll be less of a problem for you.

 

[Havox]

At least for the moment, there are plenty of opportunities to forgo a training program remain a Career Medical Officer.

These won't be around forever either remember. It's also quite an ask to remain a SRMO/Junior Registrar type position forever.

 

[clementinez]

Medical Science and transfer.

Or you can save your reputation and do something else, then post-grad med.

everyone does this.. I don't think you can transfer to medicine at all. They used to have a pathway at UNSW where they allowed 15 MedSc students to sit the UMAT and then "transfer" after 2nd year but to base your med entry on that is highly improbable.

Law is a really demanding course and it's not easy getting good marks. I would advise against doing law unless you really want to be a lawyer. Maybe do something like Commerce/Science or an applied science instead? Re-evaluate why it is you feel law is a good idea. If it's just the apparent prestige of it and not genuine interest then I'd reconsider.

 

[T-R-O-L-O-L]

everyone does this.. I don't think you can transfer to medicine at all. They used to have a pathway at UNSW where they allowed 15 MedSc students to sit the UMAT and then "transfer" after 2nd year but to base your med entry on that is highly improbable.

Law is a really demanding course and it's not easy getting good marks. I would advise against doing law unless you really want to be a lawyer. Maybe do something like Commerce/Science or an applied science instead? Re-evaluate why it is you feel law is a good idea. If it's just the apparent prestige of it and not genuine interest then I'd reconsider.

I genuinely feel tied between the two and I'd much rather drop the law component of a law science degree and keep the science part if I realise that Medicine really is the way for me. I would prefer this method than having to transfer to a Law degree completely. Commerce/Science sounds like a reasonable option as well, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[si2136]

I genuinely feel tied between the two and I'd much rather drop the law component of a law science degree and keep the science part if I realise that Medicine really is the way for me. I would prefer this method than having to transfer to a Law degree completely. Commerce/Science sounds like a reasonable option as well, thanks for the suggestion.

You should try Science/Law, and if you're really passionate, aim for Medicine.

Good luck

 

[clementinez]

I genuinely feel tied between the two and I'd much rather drop the law component of a law science degree and keep the science part if I realise that Medicine really is the way for me. I would prefer this method than having to transfer to a Law degree completely. Commerce/Science sounds like a reasonable option as well, thanks for the suggestion.

If you think there's a chance you might stick with law in case you decide against medicine then go for it.
Commerce is a much easier option (GPA wise) and the skills you get seem somewhat more transferable to a wider range of workplaces. Look through the uni handbooks (unit/course descriptions) to get a feel for the programs.
Law is very specific and a bit like the opposite of medicine. One of my parents is a lawyer, the other is a doctor - very different worlds.

 

[Medman]

I totally agree with Havox with what he stated earlier. You won't know anything unless you are an actual doctor or medical student. Even some medical students don't understand the gravity of the situation. New development, even for SRMO positions you will most likely won't receive an "interview" unless you have done some sort of research. I have been involved in my cohort in a variety of ways (president of my RMOA, teaching, input at multiple committees) but I have not published anything because I don't like research. Guess who didn't get an interview for even a sub-par outer metropolitan hospital. Personally, I don't feel I am a bad doctor and I know for a fact that I am a better doctor than people who have gotten interviews but guess that doesn't really come across on a CV (I only consider myself as a slightly above average doctor). I have also spoken to a famous neurosurgeon who sat on the board of training (for neurosurgeons) even he said there has been increasing problems with CV based vetting of candidates and they boot out 10% of neurosurgical trainees because they are unsafe to practice this is despite the fact they look perfect on their CV.
Even the GP program is not considered a fallback option as almost 1/4 of applicants will not get a position and this will only get worse in the future. This issue is affecting NSW more than any other state.
Maybe it is my fault but perhaps it isn't but being good at your job doesn't seem cut it anymore in medicine. It is so competitive that everyone that wants to do surgery is now doing a masters, additional courses are now compulsory, audits/presentations are now part of your job, research seems crucial on selection criteria and references will make or break your career. Also the medicine only appreciates those that fall into line if you make any trouble your name will spread into the industry and you will find it difficult to find a job in the future. At least in other industries there are many private companies and you can pick and choose but in medicine you don't have that choice until you become a consultant.

TLDR: If you're sure about medicine you better be prepared to make serious sacrifices. Be prepared because you have been warned.

 

[Schmeag]

Maybe it is my fault but perhaps it isn't but being good at your job doesn't seem cut it anymore in medicine. It is so competitive that everyone that wants to do surgery is now doing a masters, additional courses are now compulsory, audits/presentations are now part of your job, research seems crucial on selection criteria and references will make or break your career.

You do not need to have a publication to even enter a training program or get a job post-fellowship - it would certainly help (only if it's actually relevant), but it is not compulsory. As with any other job, to get shortlisted, you need a relevant CV framed with a succinct cover letter +/- selection criteria form, stellar references.

At least in other industries there are many private companies and you can pick and choose but in medicine you don't have that choice until you become a consultant.

These won't be around forever either remember. It's also quite an ask to remain a SRMO/Junior Registrar type position forever.

There seem to be plenty of opportunities to remain a CMO in privateland. It's not too hard to find them on the internet or via locuming agencies. It's just a case of whether you think that's where your priorities lie. There are certainly a decent number of doctors who are happy with this kind of arrangement.

There is truth in what Medman and Havox are saying, which is that it's not a simple case of waltzing into your chosen specialty, whether it be dermatology or General Practice (although this certainly still does seem to happen - I remember a PGY2 neurosurgical registrar). However, good insight and planning, combined with dedication and passion with regard to your chosen future specialty will get you a long way.

 

[bangladesh]

I honestly understand the big issue of supply/demand in medicine and training for a long time and not being able to land a job as a consultant at the end of the tunnel but in all honesty, people in medicine probably have it easier than other degrees (law, commerce etc) where the supply/demand issue is much much worse.

The key would be to for RACP/other major colleges to follow RACS and limit trainee intake in order to make sure they're not overtraining people and it seems like they are slowly moving towards that but for the mean time we just have to suck it up.