A Question of Christian Theology (1 Viewer)

tommykins

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thats some philosophical shit right there.
yet none could give a plausible response or answer.

which leads me to conclude that without the promise of being 'saved', i'm sure alot of people would lose their faith or be reluctant within a split second.
 

Iron

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A few things...I won't address all, too much repetition...


Firstly we assumed the axiom of God's existence. But your argument then runs like this:

1/ God exists (assumed).

2/ He created this universe (flow from 1 given the definition of God as an ultimate creator).

3/ Everything created by him is good (begs the question)

4/ Absence of god is therefore by 3, 'bad' (as above).

5/ Therefore, rejecting god (being 'seperated') is going to be ultimately bad.

Can you see the problems with these arguments? The human spin. Even if a creator is postulated, no other primate such as yourself can know of their intentions. For your argument to work there is the sneaky assumption that god is the source of good, this has no prior proof. In fact, your setting up a fraemwork of completely contingent universal ethics- that everything is absolute to the will of god.

I could make this argument, with the same validity-

1/ God exists (assumed).

2/ He created this universe (flow from 1 given the definition of God as an ultimate creator).

3/ Everything created by him is bad (begs the question)

4/ Absence of god is therefore by 3, 'good' (as above).

5/ Therefore, rejecting god (being 'seperated') is going to be ultimately good.

Good and bad are meaningless independently in this framework. In fact, if god is only a source of goodness and all he creates is 'good', then how can 'bad' come to be? 'Bad' must be nothingness? Therefore, hell would equate to no afterlife at all. Otherwise hell would violate your interpreation and have to be SOMETHING...leading to implications of living torture (our most imaginable "badness").

If god created my soul as you say, it must be good.
?
The problem of evil is difficult to explain, but we insist that it comes not from God, but rather from man's misuse of free will. By being tempted by Satan to 'eat the forbidden fruit', evil gained a certain dominion over us - ultimately in the form of death, but also in selfish desires. However the Kingdom of God is within us too and through Christ our Lord we have all we need to fight and resist evil in this world.
 

Methalos

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3/ Everything created by him is good (begs the question)
To start with this is not what I said. I said that everything good comes from God. While it is true that when it was created the universe was good and created to be good not everything created by him is still good. So it does not follow that evil is nothing. It follows that evil is rebellion against God's intention for creation (unsurprisingly enough)

Even if a creator is postulated, no other primate such as yourself can know of their intentions.
Why not? I am not claiming to know Him on my own merits but rather in that, as we Christians believe, He has revealed Himself through the bible and by coming to Earth.

a fraemwork of completely contingent universal ethics- that everything is absolute to the will of god.
Don't you think that is somewhat the definition of God?

You also made the point that I seem to be making assumptions without proof, in the Scientific sense I assume. I can understand the importance of evidence in all aspects of life - that is in the broader sense of evidence. Science is a part of that but not the only part. I think that historical evidence and witness should also count for some part. Of this sort of evidence there is much to support my claims about God, namely the bible and other historical sources. The role of science is as I said undoubtedly important but I disagree with the assertion that just because science cannot prove or disprove something we should assume that it is false especially when to do so ignores other kinds of evidence.

Since we know we have a common ancestor, at what point do souls disappear? Which lower primates have souls or is it only homo sapiens? We won't be homo sapiens forever either, will our future species have souls?
Let me briefly explain the way I interpret Creation and Evolution. Firstly the "days" in Genesis 1 are not literal days since the word rather refers to time periods (or so I am told by those better versed in Hebrew than me). So the whole process of evolution up to the appearance of homo sapiens I take to be as within the scope of the Genesis story. It is not a case of souls coming in as some evolutionary point since evolution is the physical process rather than the spiritual one.The spiritual process is that we are created as beings with souls. The combination of these implies that we are simultaneously created through evolution and as we become human are granted our souls. Nor do I think it possible for other primates to evolve into humanity since they are animals and without souls. As for the future of our species, I was under the impression that humankind had effectively removed itself from the evolutionary process by removing the environmental factor to such a degree. While it is true that the environment does still pose dangers to humankind and to some gene pools more than others, it is rarely - if ever - to the extent that those people are prevented from reproduction.

Before I finish this post, last time I posted there was a response that questioned whether I had been taught to write essays. I don't consider these responses essays so I apologise if they are not up to your standards. I view forum threads as conversations and my posts - if long - I hope reflect that.

Once again, I welcome any questions.
 

jrmccann

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Hi COOKIE,

I think the biggest issue in trying to understand anything like this is to clear away the truth from the error.

The Bible does not teach the error you are struggling to accept (put nicely..or put in your terms, the "bs")...and i think this is why so many people don’t listen carefully enough to the Bible...and then shun and criticise it because it sounds stupid.

The Bible message is actually simple and profound. People have turned truth into fable, like some of the issues you are trying to ask about hell/afterlife. TRUTH...The does not teach that there is a God that torments the souls “bad” in an everlasting fire called “hell”.

Man’s “soul” is simply his life! When man/woman dies, his/her life or soul ends! The Bible does not teach that man has an immortal soul that goes into heaven (for the “good”) or hell torment (for the “bad”).

Hell in the Bible is a word that simply (and generally) means the grave! The Bible teaches that all humans die, and all go to the grave! This is just and right because we have all done wrong, we deserve nothing better.

The amazing fact about all this is that God is just (not cruel)...if we want to go our own way, serve ourselves and die...then we do! Our life will come to an end! Full stop!


But if we appreciate that God has done so much to actually help us, and that God has offered to rescue us from the state we got ourselves into, then we can see clearly to search out something better than the futility that is our vain human existence!

The Bible has a hope to be rescued out of all this pain and death; through the resurrection that Christ will bring when he returns to earth to establish his Kingdom...but this is the only “afterlife” that the Bible speaks of! Eternity is a gift...not something inherent in mortal man!

When you see the truth of the Bible, you don’t have to struggle with trying to understand all the “bs” that people say about the Bible! Let the Bible speak for itself! God's truth is there!

At least then, if you still don’t want to listen to what God says in the Bible, you can at least appreciate that God gave you the chance!

God Bless

Fell free to email with any comments/questions or need fro proof from the Bible about these points! jrcmccann@gmail.com
 
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chile777

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First up, I am a Christian, but I'm not replying in order to 'convince' anyone of things they are obviously not willing to believe. I'm also not writing so as to put myself, my beliefs or God in a position to be ridiculed. I am writing because a question was asked, and I might be able to help shed some light on what can be a rather confusing topic. Furthermore, all answers are given from a Christian perspective and on the premise that God is real.

"Why do I have to have an afterlife? I mean my dog and bird get to just die. And don’t say “because your made in his image”- I didn’t consent!!!!!!

"Why is this at all necessary? I wasn't given a choice to be born- had I been, perhaps I might have declined given eternity is a while..."

"If the non-believer is content with no afterlife- why can't god grant them (in his all-loving character) the wish of just...dieing? It's dead simple."

Human beings are made up of three components - body, soul, spirit. Dogs and birds aren't. Body is obvious; hunger, thirst, physical pain. All the chemical, touchable, measureable stuff. The soul is both immaterial and material (from the soul comes the need to be loved, as well as our emotions) and in it's most basic sense the word 'soul' means 'life'. Human beings in essence are souls and our souls are naturally tainted towards evilness as a result. The soul leaves the body upon physical death. Unlike 'being a soul', humans have a spirit. Our spirit is the immaterial aspect of humanity that connects us to God. That's where the terms being 'spiritually dead' or 'spiritually alive' come from. Spiritually alive meaining when an individual believes in and has relationship with God and are so choosing to 'connect' with Him.

To answer your question of "Why do I have to have an afterlife?", try to shift your perspective on the issue even if it is just for a moment, to try to understand the Christian view on this - I'm not necessarily asking you to agree, just try to be open to the idea... There are going to be a few concepts the entertwine, so I'll present them individually first, then relate them to each other.
1)God exists outside of time. As humans, we cannot operate or even truly comprehend what it would be like if time suddenly became obsolete. That's why eternity seems so incomprehensible.
2)God loves you. Whether you like it or not, whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you choose to believe it or not, GOD LOVES YOU. It's a perfect love, a love that never fails, a love that will never let you down, a love that will never hurt you. It's not an abusive love, nor a manipulative love. It's a love that would lay down his life, for you.
3)God desires relationship with you more than anything.

Because God loves you so much and desires relationship with you, He wants to spend eternity with you. Because He knows how much love He has to pour out on you and to bless you and to make you whole, He knows that Heaven is well...heaven. (There is a song that captures the essence of heaven really nicely called You Hold Me Now by Hillsong if you want to look it up.) Why would a loving God want to let you just die and have nothing, and let you miss out on the joy and perfection of Heaven? That would be rather contradictory of Him, I think. However, like you kind of seemed to vaguely understand, you do have a choice. You can accept God and believe in his awesomeness, ultimately allowing Him to bring you into eternal life in Heaven, or if you don't want to accept that, like Satan (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're the devil) you too can choose to spend an eternity without God. I'll go into that a little later and it will all tie together even more.

So in light of this, whether or not you consent to "having an afterlife" is irrelevant.

"I'd have to say the common Christian response holds the worst logic ever- so the "loving" god not only needs to lock you away from him (because you "choose it"- something I'd argue, having "faith" is impossible for many atheists!) but you need to also suffer torment."

Let's start with a definition of faith:

faith:
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing
2. belief that is not based on proof

Looking at the definition of faith, all atheists in fact have faith as they hold a belief, trust, confidence etc etc that there is no God. Agnostics in essence are the only ones who don't have faith because they are unsure of their beliefs about God and God-related issues, but that's irrelevant here.

In response to the perceived Christian response that "holds the worst logic ever" (which in fact the argument "the "loving" god not only needs to lock you away from him but you need to also suffer torment" is actually not at all aligned with the beliefs of Christianity), what seems to be missing from any response I've read is Satan's role in relation to hell. I'll try to put it as simply as possible... God did not create hell. Nor does God force people to suffer torment or pain. Satan (the devil, ultimate evil...you get the picture) rejected God for want to be more powerful than God and so through this rebellion became the opposite of everything God is. For example, God is love/life/light/perfect/good/Creator/peace; Satan is hatred/death/darkness/corrupt/evil/Destroyer/torment and so on and so on. So God did not create hell and consequently does not lock those who don't have relationship with him (because ultimately Christianity is NOT about following a religion, but is all about relationship) in hell. Satan created hell through his rejection of God and because God allowed Satan free will, just as he offers us free will, God also allowed Satan supremacy over hell, which in essence is the absence of God and thus the absence of the aforementioned nature of God.

"Do you respect "theologians" as an academic, even if they have done a phD?"

I think this question is obviously going to provoke a vast array of responses. Life I said before, I am a Christian and if a Christian "theologian" presents ideas concerning Christian beliefs I will listen to what they have to say. Whether or not I agree with their ideas will be influenced by their use of Biblical support that is in context (Scripture used out of context is the primary cause of many misconceived ideas, philosophies and arguments. In fact, it's often seen in the doctrine of cults), as well as how it aligns with the nature of God as understood through the Bible. As far as theologians as academics, I'd say sure, why not? They've studied hard and put in a lot of work into topics and concepts that aren't particularly easy to grasp. To be honest though, I don't think whether theologians are classified as academics or not isn't greatly important in relation to your other questions.

"I mean is there really any difference between them and someone doing their phD on Harry Potter?"

I suppose the difference is that 'religion' affects the world to such an incredible degree that an understanding of what it is all about is inmeasurably important, whether you agree with the theologians or not. That goes for any religion really, not just the Christian faith. Also, theologians deal with a greater scope of concepts like ideas concerned with Creation, what existed before creation, why we're on earth, what happens after we die, why is there bad things in the world etc etc etc. All that deep stuff. Somehow I don't think it's quite the same as Harry Potter.

"These people are experts on what exactly? How to interpret Bible passages? The inner workings of "gods" mind?" "

There's no real question here unless you want to rephrase it. All you need to do is look up a dictionary definition of a theologian/theology.


Look, at the end of the day whether or not you are open to the whole concept of a God who loves you is up to you and will influence how you respond to the commentaries and ideas that not only I've presented here, but that you will encounter throughout your life. I hope that this essay of an answer helped throw some light on your questions from a Christian perspective.

Just remember, Christianity is not at all all about laws and rules and regulations. It's about relationship and it's about love.
 
X

xeuyrawp

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I agree, but I believe more generally, the most difficult issues for monotheists to explain is the extent of their god's actions (which includes evil).
 

Libby01P

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Look, at the end of the day whether or not you are open to the whole concept of a God who loves you is up to you and will influence how you respond to the commentaries and ideas that not only I've presented here, but that you will encounter throughout your life. I hope that this essay of an answer helped throw some light on your questions from a Christian perspective.

Just remember, Christianity is not at all all about laws and rules and regulations. It's about relationship and it's about love.

Very nice conclusion ;)
Not trying to convince anyone, just putting out an actual answer to the question.

I agree, but I believe more generally, the most difficult issues for monotheists to explain is the extent of their god's actions (which includes evil).

trying to increase the post size over 30 pages eh? I look forward to any responses ;)
 

jrmccann

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"jrmccan... you talk of understanding the bible yet sprout complete nonsense"


Hi, Thanks for your comments...I am able and happy to support all I say from the Bible. Please feel free to email me with your issues about what I said. To just put down what I said without query is neither logical nor correct!

I'm sure you can understand that with one Bible, yet over 7000 forms of Christianity alone, there must be too many people putting their opinions ahead of God's simple truth!

Unfortunately, people struggle with the “theology” that has been taught by some! In fact, it is this that turns people away from God the most! If they actually heard the truth, at least it would help them make up their mind in clarity!

Take the concept of an evil angel called Satan or the Devil. This was introduced by the church in the early ages to bring fear and dread so the church could control people, not save them! But the Bible teaches that the devil is sin...and Christ destroyed the Devil or sin in his death. So now, because of Christ's death, God is willing to forgive sinners and save them...see how the truth “sets us free”?

I look forward to hearing from you!

God Bless
J
jrcmccann@gmail.com
 

Telstra Robs

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Another question that might be interesting for responses -

If we say, with the assumption that God exists - however, a catch being that believers are now condemned to Hell whilst non-believers are sentenced to Heaven (of course, this would be written in the Bible/scriptures/what not), would people still believe? They can say this 'hypothetical' makes no sense, but if we roll with their definition of 'God' we can simply say "It's the way God works, he isn't bounded by logic".

I'm willing to bet alot of people would drop their beliefs
Not sure if this was already answered, but, it is a paradox for:

If people were to stop believing in God, they wouldn't believe that non believers went to Heaven. As of such, in order to believe that non believers go to Heaven, they would have to believe in God. And to stop believing would thus state that they did not believe that non believers went to Heaven, for they do not believe in God.

So, when they are believing in God, they are believing that non-believers go to Heaven, and when they stop believing, they don't believe that non-believers go to Heaven, but the whole point of not believing is to go to Heaven, and they know this, they are still believing.
 

blueduck

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But the Bible teaches that the devil is sin...and Christ destroyed the Devil or sin in his death. So now, because of Christ's death, God is willing to forgive sinners and save them...see how the truth “sets us free”?

jrcmccann@gmail.com
i have question about the sacrifice of jesus...

if we take the holy trinity as the truth i.e. that yahweh, jesus and the holy spirit are united as one entity .... then god thought that it would be an appropriate method of relieving all of humanity of their sins by sacrificing a part of himself, to himself, to convince himself that he should "forgive sinners and save them" even though he knew he was going to forgive everyone in the first place, as he is all knowing and that.... surely this seems counterproductive?

And is it really more moral to put all the sins of humanity on to one sacrifice than to face the consequences ourselves?

i know this is not totally on topic but i am genuinely confused and frustrated with other empty explainations such as "its a metaphor"
 

Sultun

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i have question about the sacrifice of jesus...

if we take the holy trinity as the truth i.e. that yahweh, jesus and the holy spirit are united as one entity .... then god thought that it would be an appropriate method of relieving all of humanity of their sins by sacrificing a part of himself, to himself, to convince himself that he should "forgive sinners and save them" even though he knew he was going to forgive everyone in the first place, as he is all knowing and that.... surely this seems counterproductive?

And is it really more moral to put all the sins of humanity on to one sacrifice than to face the consequences ourselves?

i know this is not totally on topic but i am genuinely confused and frustrated with other empty explainations such as "its a metaphor"
...you do realise that Christianity is bogus...? The debate was over hundreds of years ago; Christianity has no intellectual basis.
 

blueduck

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...you do realise that Christianity is bogus...? The debate was over hundreds of years ago; Christianity has no intellectual basis.
yeah i think all of the hypocrisy, talking animals and total ignorance of anything scientfic made that pretty clear man...i was just curious as to how and why people like jrmccann can find such inspiration and assurance of yahweh's divine will out of something so totally nonsensical as the supposed "sacrifice" of christ... other than the obvious reason that they can not cope in a world with out god
 

Sultun

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yeah i think all of the hypocrisy, talking animals and total ignorance of anything scientfic made that pretty clear man...i was just curious as to how and why people like jrmccann can find such inspiration and assurance of yahweh's divine will out of something so totally nonsensical as the supposed "sacrifice" of christ... other than the obvious reason that they can not cope in a world with out god
Yea lol, as soon as you start analyzing any of the doctrines of Christianity it becomes quite obvious that the whole thing is absurd (i.e vicarious redemption through human sacrifice). People who are Christians are Christian because they were indoctrinated at a young age; i.e conditioned to embrace these absurd propositions as truth before their faculties of reason were developed enough to reject them outright.
 

blueduck

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People who are Christians are Christian because they were indoctrinated at a young age; i.e conditioned to embrace these absurd propositions as truth before their faculties of reason were developed enough to reject them outright.
not always sometimes they are simply too stupid to understand science or too lazy to develop their own morals or too stubborn to realise the contradictions that act as the basis of christianty.... but seriously jrmccann....im waiting?
 

Sultun

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not always sometimes they are simply too stupid to understand science or too lazy to develop their own morals or too stubborn to realise the contradictions that act as the basis of christianty.... but seriously jrmccann....im waiting?
No I am quite convinced this mania has nothing to do with any deficiency in their underlying neuroses but rather a problem of social conditioning. Obviously the majority are far below average intelligence (as the ones of higher intellect tend to break out of this babyish delusion).
 

blueduck

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No I am quite convinced this mania has nothing to do with any deficiency in their underlying neuroses but rather a problem of social conditioning. Obviously the majority are far below average intelligence (as the ones of higher intellect tend to break out of this babyish delusion).
i can see that social conditioning does have a large impact but we are also socically conditoned to belive in the existence of santa and the tooth fairy...it is only the true idiots among us that continue this belief into early adulthood...apoligies to any christians who just had their belief system in santa attacked...please note that i do not wish to argue further about any other imaginary entity than mighty yahweh himself.

btw i like ur use of "mania" ...very accurate... fun fact: 60% of american adults believe that god created man in his present form less than 10,000 years ago!the idiocracy of humanity still surpirses me
 

jrmccann

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i have question about the sacrifice of jesus...

if we take the holy trinity as the truth"
Dear Blueduck,

Thank you for proving my initial point! My initial post was me feeling sad for the millions of blogs like this on the internet filled with people who hate religion/God/Christianity etc because they find confusing the "beliefs" (or errors as i am showing!) people preach seemingly on behalf of God.

Your example of the "holy trinity" is classic! The Trinity is not "truth"...in fact it was a man made doctrine first introduced into the Church by the Roman Emperor Constantine (Early AD 300's) from which it developed in the Niceane Creed and then the Atenasian Creed (AD 525)...history attests to this...it is not Biblical or logical as you just showed!

You and the others who posted after you (Eg Sultun) struggle with and give up on Christianity because it "has no intellectual basis" (copyright Sultun!)...but in fact how you came to this conclusion was logically testing a false doctrine and a false Christianity! So I see and appreciate why you think this way!

So, you have genuinely tried to do the right thing by testing out what people have calimed (which by the way the Bible says in a good thing and promotes! eg. 1 Thess 5v21).

If you looked up the Bible and its truths, you would find "inspiration" and logic. In fact, you can even look up the writers of the 1st century and find historical evidence that even the critics of their day could not answer the logic of those teaching the truth! (also, even Jesus had to argue with the errorists of his day and the hypocrites, and put them in their place)...

However...in fact, history also attests that more people have become Christians as a logical choice made by them as an adult than those "indoctrinated" as youths! WHY? Because the TRUTH is logical...you just have to be willing to test all of the evidence! Forensic Scientists don't hang the first person the evidence points towards until they have done a total search of all the evidence! For anyone to do otherwise is not "scientific"!


It may seem "nonsensical", but its not that I can't cope with being in a world without God, its just "unscientific" and illogical to believe that there is no God!

In fact...it requires more faith to believe that God does NOT exist than what is needed to believe that He does!

God Bless
J
jrcmccann@gmail.com
 
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tommykins

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nothing but babble, gonna post some arguments + sources or are u jst gnna preach
 

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