Abortion debate (3 Viewers)

[Phanatical]

More specifically, I'm saying if there Is an unintended pregnancy, then the best time for it is in marriage, where the child will be given the security and stability it needs to develop into a happy and healthy member of our society.

 

[erawamai]

More specifically, I'm saying if there Is an unintended pregnancy, then the best time for it is in marriage, where the child will be given the security and stability it needs to develop into a happy and healthy member of our society.

I don't think you read ur inner child's post, not that that would change your view on the issue.

 

[braad]

ha ha ha...yeah. Go fellow tree-hugging-vegan-new-age-sensitive-animal-rightsists! lol.

fuck off, i dont hug trees

 

[Lucy257]

woah.....*backs off*

 

[Not-That-Bright]

thus only rich people were able to have the ability to marry

Really? That's quite interesting... got any articles you could link to about this?

 

[ur_inner_child]

Really? That's quite interesting... got any articles you could link to about this?

actually it was an assignment i did

http://www.music.usyd.edu.au/docs/genstudies_outline_doc.pdf

one of those topics that are a bitch to find on the net, but if you will, here are the books... i don't quite remember which book it was, since it was a while ago, but what do you know, thought it might give me a smidge of credibility

Week beginning August 15: INDUSTRIALIZATION: WOMENS’
BODIES
Did the coming of industrial society increase women’s control over
their own bodies? (Among the topics you might consider are
women and the family, employment, marriage, reproduction and
fertility, prostitution. Focus your answers on the late eighteenth
and early nineteenth centuries.)
A. Anderson, Tainted Souls and Painted Faces: The Rhetoric of
Fallenness in Victorian Culture, Ithaca, 1993
P. Aries & G. Duby, eds. A History of Private Life, vol. 4, From the Fires
of Revolution to the Great War, Cambridge Mass. And London, 1990,
pp. 131-165; pp.228-239 (CCR)
R. Fuchs, Poor and Pregnant in Paris: Strategies for Survival
in the Nineteenth Century, New Brunswick, N.J., 1992
J. Gillis, For Better, For Worse: British Marriages, 1600 to the Present,
New York, 1985
J. Henderson & Richard Wall, ed., Poor Women and Children in the
European Past, London, 1994 (excerpts CCR)
E. Hopkins, A Social History of the English Working Classes,1815-
1945, London, 1979
C, Lis, Social Change and the Labouring Poor: Antwerp, 1770-1914,
New Haven, 1986
N. Roberts, Whores in History: Prostitution in Western Society, London,
1993 (FSR)
W. Seccombe, Weathering the Storm, Working Class Families from the
Industrial Revolution to the Fertility Decline, London, 1995 (excerpts
CCR)
E. Shorter
M. Spongberg, Feminising Venereal Disease: the body of the
prostitute in nineteenth-century medical discourse, New York,
1997
G. Sussman, Selling Mothers' Milk: The Wet-Nursing Business in
France, 1715-1914, Urbana,1982

 

[Not-That-Bright]

So poor women never married poor men?
How far back are we going here?

 

[Phanatical]

I remember Historical and Cultural Studies 2. My views divided my class on certain topics, but that might have something to do with the fact that half my class were the Christian nutjobs, and the other half were the bohemian nutjobs.

 

[Phanatical]

So poor women never married poor men?
How far back are we going here?

Marriage wasn't always about love. Some would say it isn't even about love now, but I choose to be a bit more optimistic. It was more about security in more primitive societies. A contract between a man (the provider) and the woman (the nurturer). The man's responsibility was to provide for the wife/wives, in exchange for their care. Whether or not they loved each other was a secondary or even tertiary concern.

 

[ur_inner_child]

So poor women never married poor men?
How far back are we going here?

there was a large number of de facto relationships.

still trying to find an internet source

 

[ur_inner_child]

I remember Historical and Cultural Studies 2. My views divided my class on certain topics, but that might have something to do with the fact that half my class were the Christian nutjobs, and the other half were the bohemian nutjobs.

so you didn't realise that marriage was a kind of construct?

ie a good number of couples lived together... according to you, should they have had children without marriage?

 

[ogmzergrush]

so you didn't realise that marriage was a kind of construct?

ie a good number of couples lived together... according to you, should they have had children without marriage?

I thought it was genetic :~(

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I don't care whether they loved each other, I just find it interesting that in such a religious time people would not get married. Perhaps there were huge marriage taxes?

 

[erawamai]

I remember Historical and Cultural Studies 2. My views divided my class on certain topics, but that might have something to do with the fact that half my class were the Christian nutjobs, and the other half were the bohemian nutjobs.

What kind of a nutjob are you phanatical?

 

[ur_inner_child]

I don't care whether they loved each other, I just find it interesting that in such a religious time people would not get married. Perhaps there were huge marriage taxes?

can't find an internet source, which is probably a common trait for a lot of uni essays i write, but there is a not so similar case with australia's aborigines, and their right to marry

only demonstrates the idea that marriage is a construct, suited and enforced by the authority at the time... either way, according to phanatical, the aborigines shouldn't have had children, because they weren't married.

as far as i'm concerned the idea that i'm arguing that "marriage is a consturct" against phanatical's reasoning for "sex can only be after marriage" etc....... well i would rather go back to saying "phanatical, you can do that, but other people won't."

 

[katie_tully]

I hope that one day your efforts will not be in vain dear inner_child. <3

 

[Phanatical]

We execute the innocents
Andrew Bolt
30 November, 2005

IN Australia, we are too ashamed to even mention the babies born alive after botched abortions - only to be left to die.

What hypocrites we are. We are hysterical over the execution of a drug trafficker, but say nothing at all on the effective execution of babies, outside or inside the womb.
But in Britain the silence over these children is being broken. Doctors in Britain have warned their Department of Health that up to 50 babies a year there are born alive in late-term abortions gone wrong.

The doctors fret that they could be charged with murder, though I'm actually more alarmed by the fate of the babies than by the legal hassles of those who kill them.

So Britain's Confidential Inquiry into Maternal and Child Health this month announced it would investigate these deaths, as will the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.

Of course, they'll probably do no more than recommend that late-term babies being aborted be first injected with poison in the womb, as often happens here, to ensure such, um, legal difficulties don't occur.

But a parliamentary committee will next week at least hear from a woman who can't accept such killings and for reasons you may guess, simply by knowing how she was born.

Gianna Jessen, 28, was aborted as a baby but, mercifully, allowed to live -- and was able to. The Nashville musician was, however, left with cerebral palsy.

"If abortion is about women's rights, then what were my rights?" she asks.

What indeed? In the abortion ideology of the modern feminist, such a baby girl has no rights at all. At best, a Gianna might be killed in the womb rather than be born alive in a bungled abortion, to die in a dish. Some choice.

Here is a feminism that kills. No one who defends it can dare tell me in the same breath that they oppose capital punishment as evil.

Why is hanging a smuggler of heroin worse than tearing a living, crying baby from a womb and killing it?

Britain, to its credit, now has the courage to inquire into this terrible practice -- one more common now as women increasingly have abortions later. In Australia, our only hope is that a Sydney court case might at last end our own cowardly silence.

For too long, our doctors have avoided even recording the births -- and then deaths -- of babies who survive abortions. Greg Cavanagh found this out when he was tipped off by a horrified midwife about the abortion at 22 weeks of Jessica Jane, born alive in a Darwin hospital in 1998.

Cavanagh, the Northern Territory coroner, was told how Jessica, tiny but perfect, was slipped into a stainless steel dish and left alone in a room where she cried until she died, 80 minutes later.

At the inquest he called, he was also told that other late-term babies had been born alive after abortions in the NT, only to die. And none of those deaths had been reported to him or publicised in any way.

It has been the same story in NSW. A coroner investigated the death of a baby found alive in a bin after an abortion in Sydney's Westmead Hospital and also learned there had been more such cases, none of which had been reported.

I haven't heard of similar tragedies in Victoria, but who would tell? Or perhaps our doctors more routinely do what a doctor at Melbourne's Royal Women's Hospital did to a healthy girl called Jessica, already 32 weeks in the womb, and first kill the fetus with an injection to the heart.

In this Jessica's case, the doctor, who can't be named, thought she was a dwarf, which allegedly made her superstitious mother threaten to kill herself if she didn't get an abortion. It now turns out the doctor may have been wrong, though the hospital denies it. But I can't tell you much more, thanks to legal restrictions and the say-nothing culture of the abortion industry.

But perhaps that say-nothingness may yet end, even here, now that Sydney abortionist Suman Sood was last month ordered to stand trial on charges of manslaughter following an alleged late-term abortion she performed.

It is alleged that she handed an abortion drug to a woman who went home and gave birth to her son in her toilet. The boy was fished out and rushed to hospital, but died five hours later -- which, I guess, was the desired result anyway. Sood is fighting the charges.

Will this court case prompt us at last to have the debate over late-term abortions that we're running from so hard? Will our politicians heed their consciences on these deaths?

Dare we at least hope that our political bishops, with so very much to say on industrial relations reform, spare a moment to say just one sentence, just one sombre word, for pity's sake, on this killing of babies who are able to breathe, cry and struggle for the few lonely hours we let them live?

Testimony of abortion survivor Gianna Jessen before the Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on April 22, 1996.

My name is Gianna Jessen. I am 19 years of age. I am originally from California, but now reside in Franklin, Tennessee. I am adopted. I have cerebral palsy. My biological mother was 17 years old and seven and one-half months pregnant when she made the decision to have a saline abortion. I am the person she aborted. I lived instead of died.

Fortunately for me the abortionist was not in the clinic when I arrived alive, instead of dead, at 6:00 a.m. on the morning of April 6, 1977. I was early, my death was not expected to be seen until about 9 a.m., when he would probably be arriving for his office hours. I am sure I would not be here today if the abortionist would have been in the clinic as his job is to take life, not sustain it. Some have said I am a "botched abortion", a result of a job not well done.

There were many witnesses to my entry into this world. My biological mother and other young girls in the clinic, who also awaited the death of their babies, were the first to greet me. I am told this was a hysterical moment. Next was a staff nurse who apparently called emergency medical services and had me transferred to a hospital.

I remained in the hospital for almost three months. There was not much hope for me in the beginning. I weighed only two pounds. Today, babies smaller than I was have survived.

A doctor once said I had a great will to live and that I fought for my life. I eventually was able to leave the hospital and be placed in foster care. I was diagnosed with cerebral palsy as a result of the abortion.

My foster mother was told that it was doubtful that I would ever crawl or walk. I could not sit up independently. Through the prayers and dedication of my foster mother, and later many other people, I eventually learned to sit up, crawl, then stand. I walked with leg braces and a walker shortly before I turned age four. I was legally adopted by my foster mother's daughter, Diana De Paul, a few months after I began to walk. The Department of Social Services would not release me any earlier for adoption.

I have continued in physical therapy for my disability, and after a total of four surgeries, I can now walk without assistance. It is not always easy. Sometimes I fall, but I have learned how to fall gracefully after falling 19 years.

I am happy to be alive. I almost died. Every day I thank God for life. I do not consider myself a by-product of conception, a clump of tissue, or any other of the titles given to a child in the womb. I do not consider any person conceived to be any of those things.

I have met other survivors of abortion. They are all thankful for life. Only a few months ago I met another saline abortion survivor. Her name is Sarah. She is two years old. Sarah also has cerebral palsy, but her diagnosis is not good. She is blind and has severe seizures. The abortionist, besides injecting the mother with saline, also injects the baby victims. Sarah was injected in the head. I saw the place on her head where this was done. When I speak, I speak not only for myself, but for the other survivors, like Sarah, and also for those who cannot yet speak ...

Today, a baby is a baby when convenient. It is tissue or otherwise when the time is not right. A baby is a baby when miscarriage takes place at two, three, four months. A baby is called a tissue or clumps of cells when an abortion takes place at two, three, four months. Why is that? I see no difference. What are you seeing? Many close there eyes...

The best thing I can show you to defend life is my life. It has been a great gift. Killing is not the answer to any question or situation. Show me how it is the answer.

There is a quote which is etched into the high ceilings of one of our state's capitol buildings. The quote says, "Whatever is morally wrong, is not politically correct." Abortion is morally wrong. Our country is shedding the blood of the innocent. America is killing its future.

All life is valuable. All life is a gift from our Creator. We must receive and cherish the gifts we are given. We must honor the right to life.

Amy Charlton survived three abortion attempts by her mother.

In September of 1975, a woman discovered that she was pregnant. Things were very difficult for her, as she was raising two sons, six and 15 years old. Their father had walked out on them and refused to help care for the boys financially, or in any other way. The only alternative for this woman, it seemed, was to abort this unexpected baby. After all, she could barely afford to feed the children she already had.

Between the months of September 1975 and January 1976, this woman had three therapeutic abortions in an attempt to rid herself of the unborn baby. These abortions, also known as a "salting out procedure" are performed by injecting a very large syringe into the woman's abdomen, removing a certain amount of amniotic fluid out of the womb, and then injecting three times the amount of saline back in, thus "burning" the baby out. For reasons only God knows, these abortions did not take and on April 21, 1976, two months premature, her baby was born. The child was perfect and healthy, weighing four pounds, five ounces.

Unfortunately on March 16, 1977, the mother passed away, less than a year after her baby girl was born. After the woman's death, the infant's father and paternal grandmother took custody of the baby and her two brothers. As this baby girl grew up, her father told her about the three abortions she had undergone in her mother's womb but this little girl never believed him, as she assumed that if a baby is aborted, he or she could not possibly survive.

The truth only came to this girl when she was eighteen years old, married, and approximately five months pregnant with her first child. This girl needed and soon obtained her mother's medical records from the hospital that had treated her. Imagine her utter shock as she read about how her mother tried to terminate her unborn child three times. As the young girl read the medical documents, the new life inside of her was stirring and kicking as if to say "Mommy please don't get any ideas."

Today this young woman is 25 years old and is raising a family of her own. She is healthy and normal in every way, with no physical deformities of any kind.

I am the child that I have been writing about. My mother had no right to try and abort me, no matter what the circumstances were, no matter how inconvenient her pregnancy was. And if she was here with us today, I'm sure she would agree. Life is too precious to simply throw away. Now I can speak out against abortion from the baby's perspective. Any baby would choose life.

Amy

 

[RanyofuBrogan?]

Bolt said in the forum that he's only opposed to late term abortion...

 

[erawamai]

Testimony of abortion survivor Gianna Jessen before the Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on April 22, 1996.
Amy Charlton survived three abortion attempts by her mother.

I don't think anyone is for late term abortions Phanatical. Again I think you are arguing against no one on a point that everyone agrees with.

 

[Phanatical]

But the point of Bolt's article is not to debate the merits of early- versus late- term abortion, but to consider the rights of the human life that is being terminated.