accounintg firms- cadetships (2 Viewers)

[:: ck ::]

well i got into a mid tier one after my hsc

and it was pretty easy to get in...

minimum uai was to just get into an accounting course

 

[volition]

What about for big 4 traineeships? Does anyone know the story with those?

 

[pete_mate]

you wouldn't wanna do anything less than a big-4

if you're gonna be spending that much time at a place, it may aswell be resume gold

 

[turtleface]

Mid tier aren't always that bad, most are run by ex-big 4 partners, just like Caliburn and Carnegie Wylie are run by ex-heads of investment banking at Citi/Goldman or something like that.

and whilst the fact that you can make partner faster is overexaggerated, it is sometimes true. A mid tier junior partner after 6 yrs on 250K is much more than a level 2 manager on 120K in big 4

also at the Big 4 there is a huge risk of being pigeon holed. e.g. You'll be so specialised you'll be useless for everything else. Accountants need to understand everything, Audit, FA, MA, tax, corporate finance, corporate law, superannuation, financial management but at big 4 you'll probably get chucked into one of them and only know just that one area, whereas in mid tier you get to learn everything...though you're doing the work for smaller often no-name clients...maybe occasionally a rich or famous individual (a la Greg Lay and his alleged dodginess (now pretty much cleared despite refusing to testify in case "he incriminates himself" thats the stupid law for you...) with Steve Vizard)

 

[seremify007]

Too lazy to say much but basically what turtleface said is true- mid-tiers do offer a very different approach in terms of from the employees' perspective, and it's much easier to shine if you're an excellent worker and can also reach partner faster. Of course a partner salary in mid-tier is lower than Big4, it's still pretty decent

It all comes down to what you want really. Do you want to learn the whole business and be able to help a client with everything, or would you be better off specialising and focussing your skills on one area?

As for minimum UAI- big4 tend to prefer UNSW, UTS and Mac Commerce- so as long as you're in one of them majoring in Accounting, it's ok.

 

[pete_mate]

Mid tier aren't always that bad, most are run by ex-big 4 partners, just like Caliburn and Carnegie Wylie are run by ex-heads of investment banking at Citi/Goldman or something like that.

and whilst the fact that you can make partner faster is overexaggerated, it is sometimes true. A mid tier junior partner after 6 yrs on 250K is much more than a level 2 manager on 120K in big 4

also at the Big 4 there is a huge risk of being pigeon holed. e.g. You'll be so specialised you'll be useless for everything else. Accountants need to understand everything, Audit, FA, MA, tax, corporate finance, corporate law, superannuation, financial management but at big 4 you'll probably get chucked into one of them and only know just that one area, whereas in mid tier you get to learn everything...though you're doing the work for smaller often no-name clients...maybe occasionally a rich or famous individual (a la Greg Lay and his alleged dodginess (now pretty much cleared despite refusing to testify in case "he incriminates himself" thats the stupid law for you...) with Steve Vizard)

yes, but your missing the point completely. you dont join a big 4 accounting firm to hopefully become a partner, you join it to get your CA and then GET OUT.

because your working in a big 4, its very easy to get headhunted and employed by one of their clients, eg. a commercial bank or whatever.

trying to become a partner is very unlikely and takes lots of time. the big 4 is mainly a nursery for financially minded businesspeople, (rather than merely accountants) so that you can move into finance and other things. that's why they have a massive staff turnover.

this is why im hesitant to get a cadetship. It would be naive to restrict your career path to the innards of one business for such a long period.

 

[turtleface]

What you say is true, but:

financially minded businesspeople, (rather than merely accountants)

Its a bit of the stereotype going on. Besides the fact that more of the top CEOs are accountants (With a lot of accounting experience) than any other professions, very few of the new accountants do the drudgery work now. They're being replaced by Software. Take for instance consolidations, they're all done by programs now . Accountants are now full on into the strategy and operations, thats why management accounting is fast overtaking financial accounting for importance. I think thats why CPA Australia calls their members FAB professionals now (Finance, Accounting Business Professionals- lame I know)

and also i'm sure you know of external administrators, the dudes called in when ansett, hih, pan, westpoint etc collapse. You can't get any more financially minded than that, and all of them accountants (usually CA though for the more high profile liquidators)

ah im sounding like a broken record. Partnership is good, its hard to get though and people cbfed, they're into more the short term gain of getting a 50-100% payrise by leaving after getting the CA.

 

[volition]

what kind of pay are we talking if you "leave after you get your CA" ? And how long would it take on average to get partner in Big 4?

 

[pete_mate]

what kind of pay are we talking if you "leave after you get your CA" ? And how long would it take on average to get partner in Big 4?

you'd probly be 50-70 by then, its irrelevant really. the career path is more important than short term salaries, as they'll get you there in the end.

i'd say youd be about 50 by the time your a partner, there's only so many partners, they gotta retire first.

 

[turtleface]

lol 50?...no...but I agree with pete_mate when he says that you gotta wait for them to retire first. lol what a bummer, they'll be there for a while. And they're not that old either, most look 30's or 40s...so thats a loooongg wait...

New Partners are made at about 30-35 on average. You would be extremely lucky to be made Partner at 29 or younger, though both Deloitte and William Buck claim to make a habit of doing this. I emphasise the word claim. Youngest I've ever see is a 25 year old at Deloitte, though he wasn't an Accountant, I'm not sure he even had a degree (don't quote me). It depends on whether they're made junior/staff partners or equity partners. The latter get the big bucks (i.e. share of the profits). It usually takes 2 or so years after you're a Junior Partner to be made equity (I think, I'm guessing on this one).

As for salary, if you leave immediately after getting a CA (3 years post graduation) the minimum you'll get is about 70K-90K at good places. Though smaller companies may only offer about 60-65K, in which case its not worth leaving unless you hate it. You'll be hard pressed to find anything higher than 100K for 3 years experience though.

From my experience the most leave after making Assistant Manager (3.5 to 4.5 years after graduation) where you'll get about 90K-100K+. AMs themselves earn like 75-80K without leaving anyway.

Some people leave after making Senior Manager (after about 7 years after graduation), not sure where they end they up...probably Financial Controllers or Finance Managers, and they'd definately be on at the very least 120K+ for a smaller company, and at least 150K for a larger company.

Basically the longer you stay, the more high up you'll be in C&I.

 

[seremify007]

I've heard of some PwC partners been made before 32. But seriously, it's not just an age thing. Some people get it later, some get it earlier. But that being said, you could probably make partner in a small firm before 30 if you're really pro, but in a Big4 firm, you'd more likely be waiting until maybe 34-35ish? *shrugs*

As for CA... you can also start travelling alot more once you get it. My sister's salary didn't actually go up that much (well not anywhere near 50%) when she finished her CA modules; what really sent it high was when she started getting paid in pounds rather than dollars!

 

[redruM]

That partner in Deloitte was made in the Eclipse (IT) divison.

 

[seremify007]

Aren't the IT divisions (in the Big4 firms in general) supposedly accelerating partner promotions to make it more enticing to join? I heard that about the KPMG IT Audit division from somewhere as well.

 

[turtleface]

As for CA... you can also start travelling alot more once you get it. My sister's salary didn't actually go up that much (well not anywhere near 50%) when she finished her CA modules; what really sent it high was when she started getting paid in pounds rather than dollars!

sorry i meant if they leave big 4 and got another job. I think at big 4, once you get your CA (after 3 years) its 65-70K (guessing) so its lower than if you left

That partner in Deloitte was made in the Eclipse (IT) divison.

lol yeah i saw that in BRW, and during that "join deloitte" event I think they mentioned it too.

how cool would it be to sit on your ass making websites all day and get paid 600K+. I think the Holden and Qantas websites are examples of Deloitte made websites (not sure though). I think I'd like to do that...for a year or something though, Id imagin itd probably get boring after a while, like everything else

Aren't the IT divisions (in the Big4 firms in general) supposedly accelerating partner promotions to make it more enticing to join? I heard that about the KPMG IT Audit division from somewhere as well.

yeah probably, with this deloitte guy I think he had his own website design business and it got acquired by Deloitte, so they made him a partner. heh very convenient, no need for 10 years, I'd like to be in that position

 

[seremify007]

Haha being made partner because your company/business is acquired... whilst still counts as being a partner- isn't the same as someone who worked their way up!

... as for website design, I'd think you have to be pretty creative to continuously come up with ideas on how to make it look right and so on without being reptitious with your designs? *shrugs* I guess this shows accounting isn't just bean counting!

Btw turtleface- your figure isn't too far off from the real thing (it's under- PM me if you're really curious) but I can't really compare because my sister finished her CA a couple of years ago before being seconded to London- and then it varies in between Big4 firms as well.

 

[jpr333]

yeah probably, with this deloitte guy I think he had his own website design business and it got acquired by Deloitte, so they made him a partner. heh very convenient, no need for 10 years, I'd like to be in that position

I heard about this guy, from the son of the cfo of deloittes, ooh i have connections go me!

 

[turtleface]

Hey Seremify is secondments an award at pwc too?

lol before I did my work experience I though secondments were like compulsory, so I was asking my CM: "Do we HAVE to go on secondment?" (Cause I'm scared of flying) and he's like wtf? They're special rewards for high achievers.
I made it sound like a burden lol

I heard about this guy, from the son of the cfo of deloittes, ooh i have connections go me!

oh really? You know Matt Broadfoot?

A guy I know at uni (unfortunately not a good mate or anything so I'm not really connected) is the son of Ansett Administrator (Liquidator) and the Founder/Managing Partner of KordaMentha.

 

[redruM]

A guy I know at uni (unfortunately not a good mate or anything so I'm not really connected) is the son of Ansett Administrator (Liquidator) and the Founder/Managing Partner of KordaMentha.

Did the surname Korda or Mentha give it away? lol

Do you have a link to the different levels (with years after graduation taken to get there, salary ranges, etc.) there turtleface?

seremify, could you forward that PM to me, if you don't mind.

 

[ediisjoz]

Nexia Court & Co.

http://www.nexiacourt.com.au/

my brother works there... he got a cadetship last year...

 

[Malazn Pleasure]

BDO have cadetship recruitments each year.

I think they have already had it.