Another beheading.... (2 Viewers)

[breaking]

yeah........ i'd love to hear this dude's opinions on America....

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yea god.. if he hates australia he must absoblutely love america.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Suicide bombers or marter bombers as they prefer are the bravest soldiers in the world. I respect them alot

No they are moron religious fundelmentals. But since you have claimed to be a racist your opinion doesnt really matter any more.

there is a HUGE difference between purposely killing civilians and accidently killing them...

And i believe if the iraqi terrorists WORE uniforms etc then there would be no need to bomb residential houses, but since they have chosen this form of combat civilian deaths are bound to occour.

The are using guirilla tactics, they dont have a standing army so they cant wear uniforms or they would be choped down. They have to have a connection with the people (non military/guirilla), because the people are part of the Liberation.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Then is it possible for the US to NOT kill civilians?
the US has to win.

 

[Comrade nathan]

No its not, but part of the resistance movement on the people at home is to still attack the government over its civilian killing.

1 beause they shouldnt be there and innocents are dieing
2 Because it makes the invading force look bad.

Even if you know a little in guirrilla tactics and you are a progressice leftist attacking the government you still attack over the Civilian rate, it works good with the public at home.

 

[mack]

Religious fanatics who deliberately set out to take the lives of innocent are not brave by any stretch of the imagination. Tattoodguy you are a fucking idiot. I pity your worthless existence.

 

[Bone577]

As stupid as he is, he is right about the suicide bombing not being terrorism.

There was an exception passed in the UN with only the US, South Africa and Israel vetoeing back in the 80's which clearly stated that someone who carries attacks out under occupation, especially under an imperialist or racist regime is not a terrorist.

It is legitimate resistance, indeed a right for the Iraqi resistance, under the UN charter, to attack US forces in Iraq.

 

[tattoodguy]

nathan - everyone is racist buddddy - so get over it.

Even if marter bombers are religiously motivated - it still takes massive balls to go and killl urself just to attack ur enemies. Its an extremely noble thing to do.

Yeah the "terrorists" might kill some civilians, but they are trying to destrablise iraq- so i think its a reasonable strategy.

The militants/soldiers/ terrorists - there the ones protecting iraq from the US, most of the civilians have surrendered to the american government and go and be all freindly with the U.S forces. Thats not right. Alot of civilians are encouraging America and therefore they should be killed.

In war traitoring is a huge crime and should be dealt with through deadly force.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What you guys don't seem to get is that alot of the iraqi's DONT LIKE THE TERRORISTS, alot of them WANTED THE AUSTRALIAN/US FORCES! we had a lady come to our school, who was australian born but had been living in iraq for the past 15 years, her husband couldn't come to australia and was still in iraq. She told us she WANTS australian troops to come and help get rid of saddam hussein, her husband was scared of war but understood that they had to get rid of saddam.

Currently, alot of iraqi's are sick of the war and some of them are probably sick of the americans in their country... but i do believe the majority of them DON'T support the extremists that are going around chopping off people's heads.

 

[Bone577]

What you guys don't seem to get is that alot of the iraqi's DONT LIKE THE TERRORISTS, alot of them WANTED THE AUSTRALIAN/US FORCES! we had a lady come to our school, who was australian born but had been living in iraq for the past 15 years, her husband couldn't come to australia and was still in iraq. She told us she WANTS australian troops to come and help get rid of saddam hussein, her husband was scared of war but understood that they had to get rid of saddam.

Currently, alot of iraqi's are sick of the war and some of them are probably sick of the americans in their country... but i do believe the majority of them DON'T support the extremists that are going around chopping off people's heads.

I wouldn't call defence "extremeist".

Alot of them didn't want a war at all. Support for the invasion currently sits between 5-15% in Iraq depending on the source. The US/UK and the interim government are least trusted organisations according to an Oxford survey.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

can i have the links to these?

 

[Bone577]

can i have the links to these?

I hate having to source everything.

But ok.

Thats for the support figure. The first hand source has dissapeared since Reuters don't have archives going back more than a week. Though a quick google shows more sites using the same figures.
http://ndfsk.dyndns.org/kuguk8/pym/nr0406-11/iraq.htm


And heres thje oxford survey.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf

This survey was done quite a while ago too mind you. Take it cautiously as support for the US has fallen since then. Also its testing procedures are questionable as they leave out many options on important questions. Ali al Sistani is suspicously absent from the test despite being possibly the most popular and prominant person in Iraq.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

actually more likely support has stayed about the same... the anger over them still being there is being qwelled as services come back online..

let me use some other statistics from that oxford poll..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q1 - Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days – very
good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

Base = All respondents
%
Very good 13.4
Quite good 56.6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q2 - Compared to a year ago, I mean before the war in Spring 2003, are things
overall in your life much better now, somewhat better, about the same,
somewhat worse or much worse?

Base = All respondents
%
Much better now 21.9
Somewhat better 34.6
About the same 23.3
Somewhat worse 12.7
Much worse 5.9
Difficult to say 1.6
Total 100.0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q3 - What is your expectation for how things overall in your life will be in a year
from now? Will they be much better, somewhat better, about the same,
somewhat worse or much worse?

Base = All respondents
%
Much better 36.7
Somewhat better 34.3
About the same 9.4
Somewhat worse 3.2
Much worse 3.4
Difficult to say 12.8
Total 100.0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They seem divided on this issue about as much as those in america are.. however the majority believes it was right.

Q5 - From today’s perspective and all things considered, was it absolutely right,
somewhat right, somewhat wrong or absolutely wrong that US-led coalition
forces invaded Iraq in Spring 2003?

Base = All respondents
%
Absolutely right 19.6
Somewhat right 28.6
Somewhat wrong 12.9
Absolutely wrong 26.2
Difficult to say 12.7
Total 100.0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q6 - Apart from right and wrong, do you feel the US-led coalition force invasion…

Base = All respondents
%
Humiliated Iraq 41.2
Liberated Iraq 41.8
Difficult to say 17.0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And it goes on like this..... my conclusion is that poll isn't comming to the same conclusion for me as it does for you. Therefore this poll isn't stating what you claim it does and you have not presented another poll which does, i will go by this poll and by the personal talk the lady that visited our school had with us.

 

[Bone577]

actually more likely support has stayed about the same... the anger over them still being there is being qwelled as services come back online..

Don't engage in speculation. Read below. It would be far less considering the prisoner abuse scandal and such, you may not realise the amount of furor raised over it.

I made exactly two claims. 5-15% support for the US (and that is a recent figure unlike the oxford poll). Or to be exact according to my source, only 7% consider the US to be a "liberator".

And that the US/UK are alongwith the interim government some ofthe least trusted organisations.



Meaning in essence that very few in Iraq believe any meaningful democracy will show up, and just as few consder themelves "liberated" by the US.

That life is better now or if it is looking better is irrelevant. Your arguments always function under the assumption that there were only two options 1) Let Saddam rule forever or 2) Have a US led coalition attack the country and place its own idea of a democratic government.

This sort of oversimplification is incorrect. I have sais on many occasions the support for rebelling forces back in '91 was very possible yet the US AIDED Saddam in crushing the rebellion by authorizing the use of military gunships by Saddam and not allowing the rebellion access to captured Iraqi arms. They simply didn't want the rebellion to succeed as it may enstate a democratic government. They simply stated that they "prefer a iron-fisted military junta" over the government the rebellion would enstate, no matter how democratic.


Furthermore, any moral ground for invasion is ludicrous as for the 2 worst decades of Saddams rule (ie the times in which he attacked Iran, causing more than 1million deaths) and the gassing of the Kurds, Saddam was supported directly by the US. The hypocricy is painfully apparent.


Also, if there was no enstatement of the uni-lateral sanctions regime which killed over 500,000 children under the age of 5, and strengthened Saddams rule over the country, it is indeed likely that we would see a popular rebellion much like in Romania. Won't go into detail about how it strengthened Saddam and its adverse effects, but for all the information you could want on it go to, http://www.zmag.org/edwinthalliday.htm




So it is with humour that people must say "we shouldn't let him continue on, it is better to act rashly now than later", since Saddam was kept in power almost completely (and admitadly) by US-UK sanctions, US AID to Saddam against the '91 rebellion and SUPPORT for Saddam in 2 of his 3 decades of rule, the 2 in which he committed his most, by far, grevious crimes.

If the US wants be to stop being cynical about there actions (and i am only referring to there crimes in Iraq), then place a trusted interim government, not the sad excuse we have now. Say sorry for the support of Saddam. Pay reperations to the people that have suffered because of it. Bring to justice the people that aided Saddam, or aided in keeping him in power, that includes and is not limited to, every US president and UK PM since the 1970's, most prominantly Reagan (though he is deaD) and Margaret Thatcher, not to mention the generals involved in the Gulf war in which war crimes were committed, most prominantly General Schwartzkopf, Colin Powell, Rumsfeld, and all those members of the admnistrations who helped.

Once we apply justice to not just Saddam but all the Western powers who supported him, then we can see real progress. Until then it is merely victors justice.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Why bother with thoose polls. In one poll i read only 600 people were survived. With the danger in Iraq they are restricted to where they can go, so these polls would be conducted at safe areas. So these areas are thoose with no or little resistance. The interveiws would want to stay close to US safety (i highly doubt they will be going to Najaf door nocking), that means the people living in thoose ares are close to US and other Aid assitance.

With all this in mind then that poll is shocking. This is taken in a area where the people are getting most from the invasion (not including the rulling class who will soon profit from the unemployed workers created by the war). Yet the poll are very poor.

 

[SipSip]

You must also understand the fact that what the americans did was pretty sickening...i mean getting pissed on and scared the crap out of is probably more damaging than dying in some cases....

Besides...it's not the whole of Iraq that supports it...the news over there are also very shocked by this kinda things...it's just the extreme groups that think over the edge....

it's a sad world we live in...

 

[Bone577]

Why bother with thoose polls. In one poll i read only 600 people were survived. With the danger in Iraq they are restricted to where they can go, so these polls would be conducted at safe areas. So these areas are thoose with no or little resistance. The interveiws would want to stay close to US safety (i highly doubt they will be going to Najaf door nocking), that means the people living in thoose ares are close to US and other Aid assitance.

With all this in mind then that poll is shocking. This is taken in a area where the people are getting most from the invasion (not including the rulling class who will soon profit from the unemployed workers created by the war). Yet the poll are very poor.

Something that realy raised an eyebrow for me is that two Kurdish parties are in the top 3 most supported political parties according to the survey. Considering how few people are Kurdish in the country it is very questionable who they exactly surveyed (it seems that they serveyed alot of Kurds) with obvious consequences.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I'm still waiting for these polls which condem the american forces and show an overwhelming hatred for them in iraq...
Are you to tell me that they cannot hire iraqi's to do the interviews for them?

If you disagree with the poll why post it up trying to make out although the majority of iraqi's support the TERRORISTS which is what they are, don't make me debate you on this...and haven't seen an improvement in their lifestyle.

 

[Comrade nathan]

don't make me debate you on this

OHHHHHHHHHHh here we go, the allmighty debating has given his warning.

This is war not petty terriost attack. Bomibg army convo's, fire rockets whatever, is war not terriosm.

 

[Comrade nathan]

I'm still waiting for these polls which condem the american forces and show an overwhelming hatred for them in iraq...
Are you to tell me that they cannot hire iraqi's to do the interviews for them?

If you disagree with the poll why post it up trying to make out although the majority of iraqi's support the TERRORISTS which is what they are, don't make me debate you on this...and haven't seen an improvement in their lifestyle.

What proof do you have they dont.

If we are talking about the foriegn al-Zarqawi who is the leader responsible for the beheadings and other little resistance religious based groups that have built up. It seems they have little support.

Moqtada Sadr is another thing. When Ali Sistani wasnt in the country Sadr was the leading Cleric of the time. 60-65% are Shia muslim. Sadr had a very well backing and many resistane acts happen while he was care taker of the Mosque in Najaf. At one time Shia and Sunni muslim had united and it was feared a nation wide rebelion was about to begin.