MedVision ad

Best online stockborker for novice trader? (2 Viewers)

yenta

veyron <3
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
1,151
Location
parramatta stadium
Gender
Female
HSC
2003
From my understanding if you want a short-term gain shares aren't the way to go. In the long-term pretty much all share investments will be profitable, but only some will be in the short-term. So short-term is a lot more risky. Anyone know of any other good guides for beginners wanting to get into the share market?
 

doe

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
751
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
a good book is "one up on wall street" by peter lynch, who ran one of the most successful managed funds. after that the ben graham book or books on warren buffet.

theres 2 schools of thought: technical analysis and fundamental analysis. technical analysis is looking at things like current market price, volume etc, whilst fundamental analysis is looking at the fundamentals, the products, the business, the management etc. the people who have been investing successfully for all their life preach fundamental analysis, and its what i stick to. the people who preach technical analysis and/or day trading are usually selling trading services (ie brokers who only make money when you trade, regardless if you personally profit from said trade) or selling trading systems. its rare they actaully make money via day trading. day trading is sexy and glamourous and promises huge profits in short period of time. these things set alarm bells off for me. whatever you choose, be sure to investigate it and look where the money is. theres a lot of sharks out there. antoher thing about these "systems" is if everyone starts to follow them they cease to work. overall im pretty dubious on them.

trading is short term, investing is long term. you still need to be prudent about which companies to put your money in to.
 

aditya

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2004
Messages
807
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
im sorry i disagree with that.. .hes just saying that to make his book easier to write.. its much harder to sell technical books thatn it is things like that...

u think mac bank and ubs are so successful because they look at that shit? i dunt think so... they dunt even offer brokering services... so yeh thats all just creative writing...

i mean its just logic to look at that stuff, technical analysis is the proper way to do it.... i dno maybe im just an ass :D hehe

but regardless i have a point
 

doe

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
751
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
who is saying what about what to make which book easier to write?

there is no right or wrong way. i personally dont believe in technical analysis, but i dont know enough about it. the core of the issue for me is market price/trading volume/whatever are effects, not causes. the market price of a share (in theory) reflects all known information about the underlying company. if the company issues a profit warning, the share price will drop, likewise, when they inform the market they are going to exceed their profit forecast, the price will rise. the daily price of the share has no bearing on the day to day operations of the company. you dont go "i think im going to get maccas oh but the share price has lost half a percent in the last half hour" you go an eat there cause your hungry. similarly, they dont go "well i was gonna put pickles on this burger but the share price is down so better cut back".

the quoted share price is even out of date. it is the price paid on the previous trade. you might not get the same price if you traded your shares, if you can find someone willing to buy for more (or less). i look at trends (200 day moving averages), but technical analysis people look at daily, even hourly fluctuations, of market price trying to detect patterns, but the underlying causes for those patterns may be completely different. i have reservations about the way they do things (looking at effects not causes), so i focus my efforts elsewhere.

there is no right or wrong, its what is appropriate for you given your goals and plan (you do have goals and a plan, right? :) ) whatever you choose is fine, as long as you understand how it really works! that way you can make the right decisions when the pressure is on, and hopefully avoid bad situations before they happen.

oh and macquarie are notorious for charging huge fees, and also paying their staff really well.
 

doe

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
751
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
when i say stuff like "have goals and a plan" it doesnt need to be anything fancy. but have something!

for instance, my goal was to put some money down and just see how i go in the sharemarket. i dont want to lose the money ive worked hard to save, thats why i use the asx web thingy. but regardless, i wanted to get in there. it is just the same as buying shares, you can see how much they've gone up or down. you learn things by doing, and even paper trading ive learnt a lot (like im not as damn clever as i think i am :) ) and it helps keep the stuff i read in the papers and books relevant.
 

big_ticket

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
68
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Trading can be as easy or as hard as you want it to be. As doe said, have a goal, no matter how specific or broad it is. It's a direction. For example with me and my portfolio, i have a goal of diversification...so i dont own shares in companies in the same market segment or sector, therefore reducing risk if one sector should all of a sudden fall away.

When your young, with investing always take the long term view and you can never go wrong. I've been trading for a while now, and i dont check my portfolio everyday to see wat value it is at. Just check it once in a while to check if everything is alrite.

With investing start young with a little bit of money....and as you get older and more confident in your decision making abilities invest a little more. Something is better than nothing at all.
 

Korn

King of the Universe
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
3,406
Location
The Hills
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
doe said:
when i say stuff like "have goals and a plan" it doesnt need to be anything fancy. but have something!

for instance, my goal was to put some money down and just see how i go in the sharemarket. i dont want to lose the money ive worked hard to save, thats why i use the asx web thingy. but regardless, i wanted to get in there. it is just the same as buying shares, you can see how much they've gone up or down. you learn things by doing, and even paper trading ive learnt a lot (like im not as damn clever as i think i am :) ) and it helps keep the stuff i read in the papers and books relevant.
My preference is to trade in commodities and resources, how would I got about doing this
 

doe

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
751
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
you need 2 things, understand the industries, and understand investing in those industries.

you understand the industries by reading a lot. read biographies of people who worked in those industries, they will be full of insight on how things really work. read the papers and commentary about the industry as well. from what ive seen, newspaper commentary is wrong about 50% of the time, read the articles, take note of what they say, and see how things pan out in the future. you need to get to a point where you can read company announcements and make up your own mind if what they are doing is a good move or not. another thing to look at are industry cycles, the overall sharemarket is a continual cycle of boom and bust, and its rare that an industry or sector as a whole will have consistent growth. for example, i have read that new mines are generally very capital intensive when they start, but they should start showing a profit within a year of operation. mines have a fixed life, what happens when its stocks are depeleted? how do they estimate the stocks? you dont need to know the nitty gritty details, but should have an idea of how these things all work. similarly with commodities, also be aware of the market for the stuff they produce. who is buying the steel and wheat that australia produces ... how are they going? you dont need to be a guru but be aware. you're not going to pick up a book and learn all this straight off, it will take a while of just keeping your eye open and paying attention. if there are any industry specific economic indicators you should learn how to interpret them, for example how do they guage the overall quality of harvests etc.

understanding investing in those areas means being able to determine the nature and risk of the particular investments. how do new mines raise capital? how risky are these ventures overall? are there any industry or sector specific investment products and how to they shape up compared to stright buying of shares? for example in property there are property trusts when you buy a number of units. with the money raised by selling units in the trust, the trustees go off and buy office buildings, and the rents from these buildings are distributed to unit holders. they are less risky than buying your own commerical property, and also require less capital, but at the same time arent as profitable. im sure there would be similar things in your chosen sectors. understanding the business cycle will also help you make good decisions when to buy. maybe prices tend to be low during the winter when theres not much activity in agriculture. maybe mines nearing there end of life carry a discount, and thats why they seem to be a bargain.

im a bit tired but i hope this makes sense. once you begin to get a bit of an idea, start paper trading cause it will make things more interesting. if a share rises 10% in a day it will probably have a note in the financial review the next day explaining the reasons. i had a tendency to skip these but once shares you "own" start to jump up and down, i find it adds an extra level of interest. i do reccomend paper trading though, untill you are comfortable with your own decision making. when you dont have a steady stream of income or a low income you should focus on capital preservation. if someone making $100k a year loses $10k, it will sting a bit but they can probably save it up again soon enough. if its taken you a year to save $10k, losing it due to newbness is gonna suck. also, dont worry about derivates (options, forwards etc) untill you understand the underlying securities. if you cant pick profitable enterprises, options aren't going solve your problems. the sharemarket will always be there, and we will probably live till we are 80 ... just take your time, and enjoy it. i am still learning too, and this is how i would go about it.
 

Korn

King of the Universe
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
3,406
Location
The Hills
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
doe said:
you need 2 things, understand the industries, and understand investing in those industries.

you understand the industries by reading a lot. read biographies of people who worked in those industries, they will be full of insight on how things really work. read the papers and commentary about the industry as well. from what ive seen, newspaper commentary is wrong about 50% of the time, read the articles, take note of what they say, and see how things pan out in the future. you need to get to a point where you can read company announcements and make up your own mind if what they are doing is a good move or not. another thing to look at are industry cycles, the overall sharemarket is a continual cycle of boom and bust, and its rare that an industry or sector as a whole will have consistent growth. for example, i have read that new mines are generally very capital intensive when they start, but they should start showing a profit within a year of operation. mines have a fixed life, what happens when its stocks are depeleted? how do they estimate the stocks? you dont need to know the nitty gritty details, but should have an idea of how these things all work. similarly with commodities, also be aware of the market for the stuff they produce. who is buying the steel and wheat that australia produces ... how are they going? you dont need to be a guru but be aware. you're not going to pick up a book and learn all this straight off, it will take a while of just keeping your eye open and paying attention. if there are any industry specific economic indicators you should learn how to interpret them, for example how do they guage the overall quality of harvests etc.

understanding investing in those areas means being able to determine the nature and risk of the particular investments. how do new mines raise capital? how risky are these ventures overall? are there any industry or sector specific investment products and how to they shape up compared to stright buying of shares? for example in property there are property trusts when you buy a number of units. with the money raised by selling units in the trust, the trustees go off and buy office buildings, and the rents from these buildings are distributed to unit holders. they are less risky than buying your own commerical property, and also require less capital, but at the same time arent as profitable. im sure there would be similar things in your chosen sectors. understanding the business cycle will also help you make good decisions when to buy. maybe prices tend to be low during the winter when theres not much activity in agriculture. maybe mines nearing there end of life carry a discount, and thats why they seem to be a bargain.

im a bit tired but i hope this makes sense. once you begin to get a bit of an idea, start paper trading cause it will make things more interesting. if a share rises 10% in a day it will probably have a note in the financial review the next day explaining the reasons. i had a tendency to skip these but once shares you "own" start to jump up and down, i find it adds an extra level of interest. i do reccomend paper trading though, untill you are comfortable with your own decision making. when you dont have a steady stream of income or a low income you should focus on capital preservation. if someone making $100k a year loses $10k, it will sting a bit but they can probably save it up again soon enough. if its taken you a year to save $10k, losing it due to newbness is gonna suck. also, dont worry about derivates (options, forwards etc) untill you understand the underlying securities. if you cant pick profitable enterprises, options aren't going solve your problems. the sharemarket will always be there, and we will probably live till we are 80 ... just take your time, and enjoy it. i am still learning too, and this is how i would go about it.
Is that the same with oil and currency trading?
 

doe

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
751
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
same principles ... understand the industry and understand investing in them.

currency trading is pretty full on. when banks and stuff do it they have teams of economists advising the traders who can throw hundreds of millions of dollars around to make good profits off tiny percentages.
 

Korn

King of the Universe
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
3,406
Location
The Hills
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
doe said:
same principles ... understand the industry and understand investing in them.

currency trading is pretty full on. when banks and stuff do it they have teams of economists advising the traders who can throw hundreds of millions of dollars around to make good profits off tiny percentages.
Yeah to make $$$$$ for currency trading you need to do it with lots of money, thats sort of where I want my career heading
 

doe

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
751
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
yeah itd be pretty exciting, i reckon itd be pretty stressful though. the best part is its other peoples money so it doesnt matter too much if you lose :) the traders seem to get a base salary then bonuses linked to how much money they make the bank. a funny thing was the nab currency thing a while ago. the traders took huge positions contrary to the in house economists advice, they got caught out and the nab didnt renew their options. if they had it wouldve all be sweet, because a few months later the economists were shown to be wrong :rolleyes:

i am studying applied finance and investment at the securities institute, its a pretty good course if you're interested in this stuff. i dont really want to work in finance, cause i have my own career in computing and i really like it, but i do want to be able to manage my investments and stuff, or at least not be dependant on (probably biased) 3rd party advice.
 

Newbie

is a roflcopter
Joined
May 17, 2003
Messages
3,670
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
i think my lecturer said to everyone that household "mums and dads" traders are idiots :D
 

Cyph

espresso me up!
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
1,611
Location
Newcastle
Gender
Male
HSC
2002
It doesn't really matter what online stock broker you choose, as it's going to be a discount, non-advisory one I assume being a Uni student with little capital. Go for one that's reliabe and you'll always be able to execute your trades on.

We have experienced a strong bear market the last few years, so any idiot has been able to make money, myself included. When the bear market kicks in, I think I will be withdrawing my cash from shares and possibly looking at options or shorting shares..

I've been more into small cap, speculative shares within the oil sector.. kinda risky I guess, but I figure I'm only young and could recover from any losses incurred.. but if I make big gains, then great! I do believe that there are high probability, low risk stocks like OPL within the oil sector who's downside is limited and upside potential being more than likely - e.g. being free carried through some drills. This is only my opinion though and I could be wrong.. any gains are only paper profits until realised as well :)

I also think that you should place a small trade of $500-1000 to see how you react to changes in share price. The psychological aspect is another element of the game you need to get down - when it goes up a few cents, are you inclined to sell and vice versa for when it goes down, etc. ? If you can't handle increments/decrements of a few cents, how are you going to fare when you place a $5k order down?
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

Top