Can someone explain to me why school rank is important? (1 Viewer)

[Fake-Name]

Hey, from all the "Am I smart enough to get an ATAR of ...." threads, I see they all commonly conclude with what their school ranking was.

I always thought this was to compare their 1/30, 5/30, mark.
However, I was recently in a thread where someone said they hoped for an ATAR of 80 something and mentioned that their school was ranked in the 600's.
Someone replied that the poster should change schools, I'm not sure if this was a joke or not.

Can someone explain to me what school ranking have to do with achieving a high ATAR?

 

[AAEldar]

School rank doesn't have anything to do with the actual ATAR calculation as far as I'm aware, it's only needed for people to give an estimate of how well your cohort would be performing.

 

[b00m]

it just is. don't question the powers that be.





nah.. AAEldar is correct in this regard. School rank is just a better indication of how you would compare to other students.. however, it is the aptitude of your current cohort that is a more of a decisive factor.

 

[super.muppy]

From what I've heard school rank is pretty important unless you're consistently coming first. For example, say if your coming 3rd (internal rank) and you come 2nd in your externals with 90% and another guy got 89% (coming third externally). your overall will be half of your own external mark + half of the external mark of the third (rank 3 externally) person. therefore if your cohort is generally consistent in terms of marks and there are not huge gaps then your lucky and end up with good overalls (no pun intended) :L. so if you go to a tank school like JR you end up with a super small range therefore your marks will be high as they are influenced by your year. Thats what i think, its seems logical to me, but don't take my word. LOL

 

[cem]

Your rank within your school cohort is important as that figures into the final calculations but the rank of your school isn't important as that isn't determined until the results of your years HSC is done. e.g. a school ranked 600 last year might have a very strong cohort this year and jump to 400 but slip again to 600 next year (yes those sorts of jumps do happen at that level of school rank - my school jumped from 530ish to 330ish last year but is expected to slip back quite a bit this year - we went from 160s to 580s in a year and then up a bit and down a bit and then up a lot and then down a bit and then down some more and then last year's big jump).

Internally school rank - you can influence and the higher the better.

Extenal school rank - you can influence by working with your cohort to do the best you all can.

 

[mioumiou]

I think this is a bit off the topic but people told me that your individual ranks in each subjects is more important than the mark you get. But what happened if someone got somewhere like 92% but rank at the very bottom, will it still affect them from getting a high HSC mark for that subject and the ATAR?

 

[CheesePlease]

Well that would mean your cohort is very strong and therefore should do well in the externals. If you all do well it shouldn't have a detrimental effect on you.

 

[lychnobity]

I think this is a bit off the topic but people told me that your individual ranks in each subjects is more important than the mark you get.

That's true, as that's what factors into ATAR calculation and mark alignment.

But what happened if someone got somewhere like 92% but rank at the very bottom, will it still affect them from getting a high HSC mark for that subject and the ATAR?

Getting a high HSC mark part - of course it does. Since getting 92% is pretty good, ranking comes into play during the external exams.

If the top ranking kids screw up and the 92% kid didn't (IN THE EXTERNALS), then the top ranking kids get the 92% kid's EXTERNAL MARK as their INTERNAL, while the 92% kid gets the crappy marks as their INTERNAL and keeps their EXTERNAL.

"That's a shit system. I worked hard for my externals, and someone else gets my mark for their internal!" - well, yeah? Suck it up and deal with it; you didn't work hard/smart enough during the year to get yourself in the best position to steal the best marks for your internals.
_________

For the ATAR part:

ATAR depends on your marks, the scaling of your subjects and how badly everyone else in the state did compared to you. So rank affects marks, which therefore affects your ATAR.

Well that would mean your cohort is very strong and therefore should do well in the externals. If you all do well it shouldn't have a detrimental effect on you.

This could also mean that the test was too easy, and therefore an inaccurate reflection of the student's depth of knowledge.

 

[Fake-Name]

"That's a shit system. I worked hard for my externals, and someone else gets my mark for their internal!" - well, yeah? Suck it up and deal with it; you didn't work hard/smart enough during the year to get yourself in the best position to steal the best marks for your internals.

I think I'm starting to understand..
Could you please explain the:

"you didn't work hard/smart enough during the year to get yourself in the best position to steal the best marks for your internals."

for me.

who's stealing who's mark?

The smart kid or the dumb kid?

 

[kr73114]

"That's a shit system. I worked hard for my externals, and someone else gets my mark for their internal!"

what's externals and internals

 

[lychnobity]

I think I'm starting to understand..
Could you please explain the:

"you didn't work hard/smart enough during the year to get yourself in the best position to steal the best marks for your internals."

for me.

who's stealing who's mark?

The smart kid or the dumb kid?

Smart kid steals the best marks for their internals because they have a higher ranking

what's externals and internals

Are you kidding me?

Externals - actual, 2-3 hour long HSC exams

Internal - also known as 'school mark', is aligned/moderated according to student performance in the external

 

[cem]

Internal - also known as 'school mark', is aligned/moderated according to student performance in the external

The actual HSC exams are aligned - this is the process of deciding the cut-offs for each band and it done by a team of HSC markers as part of the marking process.

The internal assessment marks are moderated - this is the process of ensuring parity across the state considering the difference in teacher's marking standards and difficulty of the tasks set. This is the process of allocating the top exam mark as the highest assessment mark to a class and the lowest exam mark as the lowest assessment mark and then allocating the rest of the assessment marks using the gaps between the students sent in by the school and the total number of marks earnt in the final exams. That total number of exam marks ends up being the total available marks for the schools assessment marks as well e.g. 24 students get a total of 1900 marks in the exam then they will also have a total of 1900 marks for their assessment after moderation.

Aligning and moderating are different processes.

 

[lychnobity]

The actual HSC exams are aligned - this is the process of deciding the cut-offs for each band and it done by a team of HSC markers as part of the marking process.

The internal assessment marks are moderated - this is the process of ensuring parity across the state considering the difference in teacher's marking standards and difficulty of the tasks set. This is the process of allocating the top exam mark as the highest assessment mark to a class and the lowest exam mark as the lowest assessment mark and then allocating the rest of the assessment marks using the gaps between the students sent in by the school and the total number of marks earnt in the final exams. That total number of exam marks ends up being the total available marks for the schools assessment marks as well e.g. 24 students get a total of 1900 marks in the exam then they will also have a total of 1900 marks for their assessment after moderation.

Aligning and moderating are different processes.

ty for clearing that up

 

[mioumiou]

That's true, as that's what factors into ATAR calculation and mark alignment.



Getting a high HSC mark part - of course it does. Since getting 92% is pretty good, ranking comes into play during the external exams.

If the top ranking kids screw up and the 92% kid didn't (IN THE EXTERNALS), then the top ranking kids get the 92% kid's EXTERNAL MARK as their INTERNAL, while the 92% kid gets the crappy marks as their INTERNAL and keeps their EXTERNAL.

"That's a shit system. I worked hard for my externals, and someone else gets my mark for their internal!" - well, yeah? Suck it up and deal with it; you didn't work hard/smart enough during the year to get yourself in the best position to steal the best marks for your internals.
_________

For the ATAR part:

ATAR depends on your marks, the scaling of your subjects and how badly everyone else in the state did compared to you. So rank affects marks, which therefore affects your ATAR.



This could also mean that the test was too easy, and therefore an inaccurate reflection of the student's depth of knowledge.

Well that would mean your cohort is very strong and therefore should do well in the externals. If you all do well it shouldn't have a detrimental effect on you.

Thanks!

 

[siraulo23]

Noob question: Is it possible to get a 90+ ATAR from a school ranked in the 600s?

 

[Kralex]

Noob question: Is it possible to get a 90+ ATAR from a school ranked in the 600s?

Yes. Just make sure you are probably in the top 3 of all your subjects.

 

[siraulo23]

hmm good to know

 

[Shoom]

Ok, I have not read any of the other posts in this thread.

But based on my experience in the HSC and communicating with others, school rank really has nothing to do with your mark. Yes your cohort might be an indication of were you place in the state ( using your school cohort to compare ofcourse), however you dont know if everyone in your school year will study really hard during the break before HSC or do nothing.

So what im saying is performance throughout the year isnt really an indication of how your going to go.

Take for example me.

School rank 260ish
During 09 in mathematic, I got the following marks
exam 1 : 65% rank 27/58
Exam2: 48% rank 42/58
Exam3: 67% rank 37/58
Trial: 38% rank: 51/58

Avg was around 54%, in my HSC mark I got 82 lol and assessment mark 80.

And everyone in maths my year was dumb, hardcore maso lads.

Does my post make sense?


Also know someone who wen to a school around 30th from the bottom and got a 97.xx ATAR, he goes to USYD with me.

 

[Makdadddy]

Take for example me.

School rank 260ish
During 09 in mathematic, I got the following marks
exam 1 : 65% rank 27/58
Exam2: 48% rank 42/58
Exam3: 67% rank 37/58
Trial: 38% rank: 51/58

Avg was around 54%, in my HSC mark I got 82 lol and assessment mark 80.

Hi, for those results you got... is that your rank gradually or is it for each test? If it was for each test... what was your final ranking? Also what was your HSC Exam mark? (I assume 84?)

 

[rolandgill98]

School rank doesn't have anything to do with the actual ATAR calculation.