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Che Guevera (3 Viewers)

soha

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a friend of mine is obsessed wif his pics and posters and thinks hes "hot"
but she wouldnt have a clue what exactly he did..or who he was
 

Not-That-Bright

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Yes it's funny that a man who's life was devoted to the elimination of such comercialisation and capitalism has been immortalised as one of the most comercial symbols of our time lol
 

Comrade nathan

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That's the opinion of most people, most encyclopedias and such will tell you that but whatever you want to believe.
You came out of know where to say that, it wasnt neccasry it was just a cheap shot at left wing governments. The conversation changed to middle class political bearings, not what one governments does and doesnt do.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Ok if you want me to add a footnote, While this type of individualism can lead to opportunities it also leads to a system where unfortunately some people will be disadvantaged.
 

pam17

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It seems a lot of people who don't know much about his life feel the need to post an opinion on him anyway.

I read a post the other day that asked how to "spell the name of that cuban guy who led the revolution." Anyone here see something wrong there?
 

Nick

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pam17 said:
It seems a lot of people who don't know much about his life feel the need to post an opinion on him anyway.

I read a post the other day that asked how to "spell the name of that cuban guy who led the revolution." Anyone here see something wrong there?
yeah he was from argentina
 

pam17

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Exactly, but people like to pretend to believe in him and what he stood for without even having the slightest idea about his background. That's what pisses me off.
 

Comrade nathan

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I-Jester said:
Check out the article Louis Nowra wrote about him in the SMH today.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Opinion/...o-become-kitsch/2005/01/09/1105205978449.html
That article is trash, and my reason are not because she criticise che but it was a trashy piece of work.

What was the point of that article. Was she going to condemn the pop culture of Che Guevara, that content consisted of a whole 2 paragraphs then she went on to criticise Australia communist. This article was just pure trash it was just someones rambling of random thoughts about Australian communist.

Im going to have to look at it again to try and find how it equates as being a article.
 

§eraphim

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Saddam isn't affiliated with the Left as in Socialism/Communism. He was actually an Arab nationalist who wanted to empower the Arabs because of the oppressive British colonialists.

To me Che represents idealism at its extreme like many other charismatic leaders. It's quite possible that if he had lived longer he could have become a despot.
 

deusexmachina

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What's the SMH coming to?
This ignorant article is yet another cheap, McCarthyist ('the scary demon of communism') example of the type of conservative rubbish that's considered 'de rigeur' today. Louis Nowra, take a bow - you've slandered an economic theory which espouses nobler values than the exploitative ones you obviously hold so dear.

What he's also done is equate communism with authoritarianism. Fukuyama does the same. Communism is, at its core, a liberationist political entity: it has BECOME an authoritarian system because it feels it has to defend its constitutents from the modern, capitalistic world at the hands of American economic imperialism.
As well as checking out the eastern European torture house, I urge you to take a look at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. The captured and tortured political prisoners in Cuba? The US does precisely the same. They're just rich enough to hide it. Stalinism is not communism. Authoritarian militarism is fundamentally NOT just a tool of the left, and thus shouldn't be equated as such.

"Che...actively promoted terrorism."
If terrorism remains the violent opposition to the exploitation of the masses for the capital gain of a few, then yes - Che was certainly a terrorist. Do I smell a loaded buzzword?

As for romanticised. Che, like any other charismatic leader, is romanticised because he makes INTERESTING VIEWING. Sod the rest of it, he's just plain good footage. He is not remembered for his communism, but for the spirit of liberation which he espoused - a spirit the modern sweatshop-riddled exploitatively-cheap-labour-using world could do with remembering. You have to question why conservatism dislikes communism. Perhaps its because it makes their money-making workers contemplate their position of subordinacy. I do shed a tear when shirts with his image on them are sold at Target...

This article is rudimentary trash. Killers are killers. Communists are communists. They are far from being one and the same thing. Mr. Nowra: I urge you to base your arguments on the fundamental facts of communism, rather than on the cliched, trite arguments of modern conservatism.
 

Comrade nathan

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Not-That-Bright said:
Deusexmachina, are communist countries defending their people from capitalism, or are they protecting themselves ?
I think it is clear that they are protecting themselves from the capitalist countries.

From the beging of the USSR they had to fight off the white army which was funded by the capitalist countries France, England, USSR etc. Cuba was attacked only 2 years after the Socialist Republic was installed in the failed invasion of the Bay Of Pigs. Vietnamese rise agaisnt French rule and the US Invades. China overthrows the cruel feudal rule of Tibet 1950 then in 1956 the CIA fund the uprising.

Now i could keep going on with a large list but it would take to long to document every event of imeperialism directed at socialist countries. Thoose examples are around the time thoose Socialist republic were created. There a list and list of direct military combat, sanctions aimed at the general population of socialist countires like in Cuba now, terriost acts agaisnt the general population of the socialist republics and a continuing propoganda war.

The capitalist countires give any excuse to any extreme authority in these countires.
 

danie

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leaders in any political sense or form tend to be ideally motivated. their source of motivation stem from many factors such as their upbringing, life experiences, education etc.

there is no "correct" political model, only one that suits the agendas of the administration that has been enstated at that time. russia became communists because of the severe autocracy and class division that existed. lenin himself did not conform to the precise model of revolutionary marxism because he saw the need to adapt to the social situation. by putting the party foremost it cancelled the core of communism (i believe anyway), i.e. an order of no classes. however how do you enforce something that is only theoretically ideal and does not account for how it should me implaced.

for most people communism equates to authoritarianism and totalitarianism because that is what history has shown (it doesn't however, mean that it is the only example of communism). in order to enforce this political structure those in power use repression as a means to stifle opposition through censorship, curtailing of freedom of speech, secret police etc. fundamental communism didn't work and will never work due to the nature of humans. there has never been a "communist" country that was indeed communist, according to the marxist model. humans have compulsions and you can't repress them, in the same breath lord alcock's adage "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true when you look at history's dictators. seraphim was right in claiming that had che lived, he would most probably be caught up in despotism. look at his comrade fidel, look at marcos, stalin, saddam, mao. they head/ed regimes that supressed their people even though their intial intent were idealistic.

che encapsulates the notion of liberation and emancipation, though sometimes his story gets lost in romanticism. his story should be regarded just as much as the icon. the problem with some of the youth is that they willfully fall in to the deified che, or most probably fall in to the commercial image. like ntb said it is very ironic that the one thing that he was fighting against is the one thing that is keeping him alive. he would probably roll in his grave if he saw what's been done with his image.

essentially though we look at che as a communist martyr and personification of humanity's irrepresible revolutionary spirit. you aren't born evil, just as you aren't born a hero, and like all of us, ernesto was human too.
 

deusexmachina

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Let's be brief here. Stalinist Russia, modern-day China -- these are examples of Authoritarian communism. Let's have a brief squizz at some countries which espouse modern socialism:

-Sweden
Nominal tax rate of around 70%. Highest standard of living in the world. Among highest standards of educational achievement in the world. Free healthcare for all. Three private schools in the country -- students are paid by the government to study (now THERE's a novel idea.) Literate, democratic society. Open-borders refugee policy. Minimal disparity between rich and poor.

-Costa Rica
Abolished national army in 1948 and dumped money into education and healthcare. Longest life expectancy in Latin America. Universities per number of people amongst world's highest. Free healthcare. Sustainable agricultural policies.

-Cuba
So Cuba's economy's not the greatest. Is that because they're using an impractical economic system or one that disagrees with US corporate interests? To be considered economically 'important' in modern capitalism, you have to follow the United States' rules of capitalism. Free healthcare. The most doctors per capita in the world (partly because Che was one). The highest rate of universities per person in the world.

And you know, I could go on...

Protecting themselves? Ha. They've endowed their people with the spirit of revolution! If their people hated them so much, they know just how to get rid of them - heck, that's how their government began!
By the way, the liberal socialist Allende was also killed by a CIA-sponsored right-wing group in Chile. The U.S. government endorsed and sanctioned his killing, because it interfered with American commercial interests in Chilean mining.
Yes, it feels it has to protect the people. Justifiably, given the sordid past of American profits before the rights of the people of the rest of the world.

<so comrades, come rally>
 

Not-That-Bright

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No.. they're protecting themselves, they control the people, this is of course one of the things making china great, however u can't say the people are 'free'.
 

Comrade nathan

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I think everyone should take into consideration that they are criticising from a capitalist perspective and in Stalins Russia and Mao's China there were democractic institutes.

Just because a country doesnt have a two party system doesnt mean there isnt democracy. Socialist societies concentrate on democracy at grass root levels at the work place and communities.

Ofcourse things like the economy are planned at a government level rather then being controled by the market by ruling class, but still the working class had say in the government it was just the party who had the final say. This cooperation allowed quotas and prices not to become unrealistic.

Well im rambling but i dont think people have really looked into Stalins Russia and Mao's China and be open minded and try to look at things from a Marxist-Leninist view.
 

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