christianity and dinosaurs> can they be friends? (4 Viewers)

[ur_inner_child]

I haven't stated my reasons for concluding why religion is wrong, i've simply challenged waterfowls belief.

because of what reason? Because it's not the RIGHT belief for you.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

What i got from this is.. u are not influenced by logic, therefor we cannot debate you with logic and we have as good a chance throwing other 'creative' ideas at you as to how the universe was created etc.

Ah... don't know what you mean there... I was saying that logic and reason is the only way to argue..

 

[katie_tully]

I can't remember who wrote it, I'm thinking it's John Lechte... But anyway, I've commonly heard Christians and other assorted religious people refer to "God" as everywhere and everything, but Lechte pointed out that if God is "everything", then he is nothing at all.... To be everything means that you are nothing, because you have no identity, identity makes the individual as does difference. If you are everything there is no difference, no individualism and therefore no identity leading to nothing.

Totally off topic, but I found it interesting and that is all that matters.

As for Science vs. Christianity.

Christians cannot provide evidence that a god existed, although there is some proof that a man named Jesus survived, and that he was quite popular amoungst the people... But then again Paris Hilton is popular with some people so there's no accounting for taste.
Meanwhile, Science hasn't really got anything better, it has theories. The theories of the big bang, the theories that the materials for life came from simple molecules, or from outer space. To date, I don't think any of these theories have been proven, correct me if I am wrong.

People revert to religion because of that age old question, a la Artistotle. What is the meaning of life? Aristotle believed it was based on the senses, and that if you could sense something (touch, smell, etc) then it was real, but he then reasoned that even if it is there, and can be sensed, is it real? Can any of you prove that you exist? If you can prove you exist, then perhaps you've found the meaning of life. The whole, obeying god so that one can go to heaven and live forever and eat chocolate cake and such is perhaps a fall back on not being able to work out the meaning of life. Humans don't want to believe that after we die, there is nothing. It would be hypocritical for a Christian to believe in heaven, but not believe in Creationism.

Science however provides answers for a lot of the biblical stories. Whether or not you believe in science is a different story. I once had a scripture teacher tell me that science proves nothing. 5 minutes later he was showing us a video, of an experiment proving that the grand canion was created by the flooding (a la Noah), and is not a result fo millions of years of erosion and sedimentation. I find it highly hypocritical that Creationists don't believe that modern science can prove the bible wrong, yet they use "science" to prove the bible right?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Your example is bizarre. Believing that you can torture babies because its fun and a right is hazardous as well as straying from what society sees as "WRONG" thus you are implying that Christianity is WRONG.

2 + 2 = 5 is ALSO wrong. It is clearly 4, and YES I AGREE that the answer IS WRONG but you imply that christianity is therefore WRONG by your example. Personally that is such an ignorant and discriminating, narrowminded conclusion.

The stupidity of saying that it is WRONG is WITHOUT evidence, which means YOU have strayed from the argument.

The only sane person here that I've taken note of (so there are some, I just havent recognised them) is sub.

*sigh*

You're missing the point entirely. What I was saying is that some things can be wrong, or incorrect.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I was commenting on waterfowls post.. i think i had a quote of it above that post moonlightsonata.

No ur_inner_child there is no... 'right' belief for you, you cannot choose what you want to believe in because what you believe in is (at least to you) TRUTH.

What is wrong with me arguing against his belief in a forum talking about peoples beliefs? I wouldn't grab him on the street and tell him he's wrong for being a christian, i am engaging in a debate...

 

[MoonlightSonata]

23In hell,[3] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

(NOTE: I am not calling myself a prophet)

You cannot use the Bible as proof that God exists. It is a circular, question-begging argument.

 

[waterfowl]

You cannot use the Bible as proof that God exists. It is a circular, question-begging argument.

I wasn't using the Bible as proof...I was just saying how that scripture is very relevant to tady.

 

[ur_inner_child]

*sigh*

You're missing the point entirely. What I was saying is that some things can be wrong, or incorrect.

*sigh as well* implying that religion is wrong? I dunno if that's a valid thing. I guess our ideas of "wrong" and "incorrect" is different

your definition: wrong through logic

my definition: because it is a spritiual choice that can also be a part of ones culture. It also holds several discourses such as love, respect etc that much of society, holds and values. It seems that most religions don't rely on proof but contain wise philosophies and ways of thinking that are also very valuable, and therefore cannot be "wrong" in a sense that it should be abandoned.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

because of what reason? Because it's not the RIGHT belief for you.

Again with this "interpretation" thing. Either there is a God or there isn't a God. If you believe in God it's not because it is "right for you," it means you have a reason to believe in God. Such a reason however has not been presented at all in this entire debate, aside from the Bible, which we've said, is a circular argument.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

*sigh as well* implying that religion is wrong? I dunno if that's a valid thing. I guess our ideas of "wrong" and "incorrect" is different

your definition: wrong through logic

my definition: because it is a spritiual choice that can also be a part of ones culture. It also holds several discourses such as love, respect etc that much of society, holds and values. It seems that most religions don't rely on proof but contain wise philosophies and ways of thinking that are also very valuable, and therefore cannot be "wrong" in a sense that it should be abandoned.

I am not saying believing in God is morally wrong, I am saying that as a matter of fact and logic, there is no reason to believe there is a God, and therefore to do so is irrational. It's like someone continuously arguing that a square has 3 sides - it is not a question of whether they are "entitled to their beliefs", but whether their beliefs are CORRECT

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I do not disagree with the teachings of religion... respect your parents, don't murder etc. I disagree with their explanations for mysteries... because they are based on ideas the same as the ideas people have to create movies... artworks... stories.

 

[katie_tully]

Again with this "interpretation" thing. Either there is a God or there isn't a God. If you believe in God it's not because it is "right for you," it means you have a reason to believe in God. Such a reason however has not been presented at all in this entire debate, aside from the Bible, which we've said, is a circular argument.

Argument for God other than Bible;
People need faith, and a stable being and all round ... dude of stuff a la God provides them this. Humans don't want to think that after we die there is nothing. Read my big post about Artistotle and the meaning of life. believing in God gives these people a gate way to a life after death, and people are willing to through away reason, and to believe and have faith in this, because it provides them an answer.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The problem is usually tho... that in the end believers don't want to go by what's 'correct' but with what they believe...
If someone solves a math problem for them, gives them the correct answer they do not argue that it is wrong, but in this ONE aspect of their life they're willing to lose logic..

I think it all comes down to fear...

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Well it hasn't worked because I still believe, and I do not doubt it one bit!

Still no reason for believing in God.

Amazing! You can perpetually go on about your beliefs without giving any reasons for them. It is simply astounding. Come on now, you must have some reason for actually thinking the things you do.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Argument for God other than Bible;
People need faith, and a stable being and all round ... dude of stuff a la God provides them this. Humans don't want to think that after we die there is nothing. Read my big post about Artistotle and the meaning of life. believing in God gives these people a gate way to a life after death, and people are willing to through away reason, and to believe and have faith in this, because it provides them an answer.

That is an argument as to why people should believe that there is a God, not whether their belief in god is correct.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I find it hard to believe that his brain doesn't even begin to comprehend that he could be wrong, i'm sure in the back of his head logics nagging voice is there

 

[waterfowl]

Still no reason for believing in God.

Amazing! You can perpetually go on about your beliefs without giving any reasons for them. It is simply astounding. Come on now, you must have some reason for actually thinking the things you do.

I already told you I am not going to go into why I believe what I believe, they are mostly personal reasons and things I don't like broadcasting on the internet.

 

[katie_tully]

That is an argument as to why people should believe that there is a God, not whether their belief in god is correct.

...
Maybe you need to read what I said again. I was not providing an argument as to whether their belief is correct, I was providing an argument as to why people BELIEVE THERE IS A GOD.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I find it hard to believe that his brain doesn't even begin to comprehend that he could be wrong, i'm sure in the back of his head logics nagging voice is there

Well it fascinates me, it really does. I mean if I went about proclaiming that I was a time traveller from Pluto or something, people would say, "oh yeah? Prove it."

If I simply said "oh well I believe I am a time traveller from Pluto," people would (a) not believe me, and (b) think I was insane!

 

[waterfowl]

I find it hard to believe that his brain doesn't even begin to comprehend that he could be wrong, i'm sure in the back of his head logics nagging voice is there

I find it hard to believe that your brain doesn't even begin to comprehend that you could be wrong. I'm sure in the back of your head there is a little voice saying "what if he's right?"