christianity and dinosaurs> can they be friends? (2 Viewers)

[waterfowl]

So the devine spirit broke its own laws and interfered with human affairs... interesting

There is nothing about interfering with human affairs (God doesn't have some star trek prime directive)! God gives man free will - that pastor had the free will to listen to what God was telling him, or not too.

 

[waterfowl]

If they knew the consequences than they already had knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong).

I'm sorry but i've been told by a christian before something about a part of god's covenant means that he can't interfere in human affairs, however if he can.. why doesn't he do it more often? Why not end famine.. (if you give me a god works in mysterious ways i'll blow up lol)

True story::: There was this pastor once who was waiting to fly overseas to get to this conference. The flight was delayed and he would now be arriving late to this conference so he was quite annoyed.
An announcement came over the PA saying that if anyone was willing to give up their seat (due to overbooking or something) they would give them accommodation and next flight etc.
Suddenly the pastor heard God telling him "step out of the line". After having an argument with God about how he woud be late etc God kept persisting and telling him to step out of the line.

Eventually the pastor stepped out of the line, went to the hotel and went to sleep. The next morning he turned on the news to discover the plane he was meant to be on had crashed and everyone on board was killed.
When he arrived at the airport the media found out that he was sposed to be on that flight and started asking him why he stepped out of the line.
The pastor said "God told me to step out."
One reporter got very angry at him, asking him why God would have just saved him and not everyone else on that plane.
The pastor responded: "God was telling everyone, but I'm the only one who was listening."

 

[waterfowl]

If they knew the consequences than they already had knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong).

No. Often children don't know the difference between right and wrong; but if you told them they would die if they did something, most of them would understand.
I mean seriously, even if you didn't know what was right and wrong, would you really do something that you were warned would SURELY kill you?

 

[waterfowl]

So am i to believe that there was no one with a christian religious belief on that flight but him?

Are you telling me that the christian peoples over in africa aren't praying for an end to famine? they're not listening for an answer?

No there may have been many, but were they listening? I mean I would probably have not been listening because I'm not as good a Christian as I should probably be.
And yes I'm sure there are many Christians in Africa praying, and I'm sure they're listening for an answer. The only problem is will any of the people who can help them be listening?
Irene Gleeson is a woman who was listening. Her husband left her and she lives in terrible conditions in Kitgum, Uganda, to help poor orphaned children.
She was listening, and still is today. Unfortunately many people just don't have her kind of spirit

 

[waterfowl]

why doesn't god help them like he helped the man on the plane?

Hows about on september 11th.. im sure there was probably priests, etc who were there and i'm sure they were listening... why did no one warn of that? why did no one predict it? (that wasn't just a lucky kook).

God is helping them through people like Irene, the bad thing is there aren't more people like her.

And actually there were people who predicted it, and it is in the Bible: I believe it says something along the lines of two towers collapsing (obviously). I know my pastor predicted (I hate that word in this context, it's the wrong word, prophesied is better) it in about '97.
Bad things happen because bad people make them happen.
I'm sure God does his best.
And you can't possibly suggest that God should answer every prayer with a yes. Haven't you seen "Bruce Almighty"? I'm sure it would be a lot worse than that.

 

[lengstar]

if your oh so holy and devine you go help them then

 

[lengstar]

And who's to say humans may be born with extra senses? Such a telepathy or clavoiryance? A dog has exceptional olfactory sense and can detect smells far greater than that of any man. A migratory bird following the earth's magnetic field can plot its breeding grounds. Budgies can seen in ultraviolet light frequencies. The possibility of humans with such genetic mutations that allow them extra senses should not be ignored. So the priest through some sort of intuition of doubt mayb have thought it a calling of God. And as was stated, why did other believers of your religion no heed God's call? Are they deaf or something? Or just stupid? You theory of God is marred by so many faults its hard to accept such a faith. What separates a man who hear's voices from beyond? One is a madman locked in a white padded room while the other is a priest.

 

[neo o]

Darwins THEORY of evolution is mearly a way of explaining the FACTS of evolution. ie, explaining how a different breed of cat is created.

Actually thats incorrect, modern theories like punctuated equilibrium, while not widely accepted do challenge Dawrin's theory of NATURAL SELECTION. Natural selection is the means that causes evolution, according to Darwin.

We've been shown however that there are a number of different reasons, that Darwin didn't think of. Nothing is bulletproof.

 

[waterfowl]

if your oh so holy and devine you go help them then

I never said I was "oh so holy and devine", I said it's a shame there aren't more people like her. I have a different calling.

So the priest through some sort of intuition of doubt mayb have thought it a calling of God. And as was stated, why did other believers of your religion no heed God's call? Are they deaf or something? Or just stupid? You theory of God is marred by so many faults its hard to accept such a faith. What separates a man who hear's voices from beyond? One is a madman locked in a white padded room while the other is a priest.

Actually it is quite hard to hear what God says most of the time, unless like I said you are listening for it. He doesn't speak in a loud booming voice like in hollywood films.
I don't think my belief is marred by many faults, rather you are trying to find faults that don't exist.
And it is quite obvious when someone has heard from God, and when they just have voices in their head, by what they are saying. Eg. if they say God told them to go burn a house down - obviously they are crazy. If they say God told them to go to Ethiopia to help people with AIDS, then it probably was God. It is actually easy to determine when it is from God or not.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Would you accept that the primary cause must exist outside the 'natural' world?

Well I wouldn't accept that, necessarily. I mean that assumes that there is a world outside of the natural world doesn't it?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Waterfoul you do realise morality is independant of god don't you

 

[Rorix]

Well I wouldn't accept that, necessarily. I mean that assumes that there is a world outside of the natural world doesn't it?

Rephrasing, can a primary cause exist within the natural world? Justify if yes.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Rephrasing, can a primary cause exist within the natural world? Justify if yes.

I don't see any reason why it couldn't, except for the practical problem of infinite regression (what was the cause of the first mover?). But having a mystical alternate world and/or god simply because we don't know is a fairly useless answer to the problem.

 

[jumb]

My oppinion: Religion is crap.

You need to not mix the 2, they contradict each other too much.

 

[Rorix]

If the primary cause must exist, and it cannot exist inside the natural world, then it must exist outside the natural world?

I'm using the word exist a bit loosley but I think you get the idea.

So, must it exist, and can it exist within the natural world?

Assuming that scientific laws (in particular, thermodynamics) are true, the universe cannot have an infinite histoy.


(it would probably help if I was more convinced of the argument myself)

 

[MoonlightSonata]

If the primary cause must exist, and it cannot exist inside the natural world, then it must exist outside the natural world?

I'm using the word exist a bit loosley but I think you get the idea.

So, must it exist, and can it exist within the natural world?

Assuming that scientific laws (in particular, thermodynamics) are true, the universe cannot have an infinite histoy.


(it would probably help if I was more convinced of the argument myself)

I get the feeling you "delight in professing opinions which are not your own"

I see what you're getting at but can we know that it cannot exist in the natural world? I don't think you can definitely say that. Mainly because when you start having different worlds to explain things, it becomes an easy sort of way out. So I would ultimately reject this concept of the "natural world."

Hypothetically though, if there is a natural world and a non-natural world, and it cannot exist in the natural world, then I suppose it would be fair to say it exists in the non-natural world. But its really question-begging. You have to assume what you're trying to prove in the conclusion, in the premises.

I'll reply more later; I have a lecture and I should be working

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It reminds me of the ancient aztecs.. back then the people didn't know that the reason why the sun rises and sets, so they used gods to explain it... which was fairly handy.

People these days are probably little different from people back then, and i'm sure that the same exact thing is happening here... It seems to be human nature to invent a god or a spirit or an alternate world (ie, aboriginal dreamtime) to solve questions they have no answers to.

 

[neo o]

once again... evolution is a fact, the way in which it occours is a matter of theory.
If you don't think evolution is fact than you're going against just about every biologist there is, evolution happens... they can show it happens, the question is HOW does it happen, Darwins theory of evolution is one possible answer however yes THIS is debated - EVOLUTION occouring is not.

There is a reason why its referred to as the theory of natural selection/evolution instead of the law of natural selection/evolution. There aren't many laws in science, and evolution hasn't been proven beyond unquestionable doubt.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes i agree.
However evolution does occour.. almost all scientists agree to this, the theory of evolution is simply a theory to explain evolution. Evolution its self is not a theory.. evolution occours much as flight occours, there is the theory of flight which tries to explain it, and there is flight.. which does occour.

Yes evolution hasn't been proven beyond unquestionable doubt.. but most scientists... i'd say 98% or something like that agree that it does occour.

They are TWO separate things.

 

[waterfowl]

Or is she just a lady who is trying to make a quick buck, says a few initials hoping that one of them will corrospond with a relative saying obscure comments about stuff they're saying to her?

This can be applied to alot of religious stories... such as ur one about the man on the plane. One time my parents were going to hop in a car with a guy that had been drinking.. they decided not to go, he crashed & died. Now what's more likely, that god was sparing their lives? or that they knew he was drunk and there was a risk of a crash?

Science cannot explain some things admittedly, i'm sure we all know this... however that doesn't mean that there isn't a scientific explanation.

Just a lady trying to make a quick buck. Psychics communicate with familiar spirits who are not from God, and therefore only give small details such as initials.
When God speaks to people it is usually more than a couple of initials.

Your parents used common sense! They decided not to go because there was an obvious problem with the driver!!! You'd have to be a moron to get into the car, or let a drunk person drive.
In my story there was no obvious problem with the plane. Everything seemed normal, and it was just another day at the airport as far as anyone knew (including the pastor because God just told him to step out of the line, didn't tell him the plane was going to crash).


And I think evolution (like natural selection) does happen, but I don't believe we evolved from apes, neanderthals, nor that the earth has been here for millions of years.