Climate Change/ Global Warming (2 Viewers)

[Captain Gh3y]

Government insanity over climate hype

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20645117-28737,00.html

Yesterday [the Government] dropped $75 million on what will be the world’s biggest solar power station… The project has also received a $50million grant from the Victorian Government’s Energy Technology Innovations Fund.

That's $75,000,000 from taxpayers, for what will power an entire 45000 houses. That's a massive 0.56% of all homes in this country.

At least it will help with so-called Global Warming right?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646447-2702,00.html

As the Government yesterday began dishing out money from its $500 million Low Emissions Technology Demonstration Fund, business leader John Ralph warned it was possible little could be done to halt climate change because it might not be the result of human activity.

“We have to be careful that (efforts to cut emissions) don’t lead to a situation where people expect there will be large changes by what we do,” the former boss of mining giant CRA told The Australian yesterday.

Mr Ralph said that while he backed moves to try to “ameliorate” the effects of climate change by reducing emissions, it was possible climate change might be occurring naturally, rather than being primarily driven by human activities.

“I don’t doubt the climate is changing, but I don’t know human activity is the primary cause of it,” Mr Ralph said.

 

[DeathB4Life]

75 million in the short term does sound like alot, but think about it in the long run. permanent power supply with the only future costs probably being little more than hiring a few guys to clean the solarcells once a month.

the Iraq war is estimated to have cost half a trillion dollars by 2010.

thats $US 500,000,000,000 = ~$AUS 665,000,000,000

thats enough to build 9000 of these solar power stations which can power 405,000,000 homes.

assuming theres 3 people living per home, that would be enough to give 1.2 BILLION PEOPLE WITH PERMANENT AND VERY CHEAP POWER. thats about the entire western world taken care of, instead it has been decided to spend that money to take over a small country.

theres alot of money out there thats being put to huge waste. if the major powers of the world just joined together and started investing heavily in alternative energies for a decade or two, we should be able to solve or put a huge dent in alot of todays environmental problems.

 

[hazaar]

75 million in the short term does sound like alot, but think about it in the long run. permanent power supply with the only future costs probably being little more than hiring a few guys to clean the solarcells once a month.

the Iraq war is estimated to have cost half a trillion dollars by 2010.

thats $US 500,000,000,000 = ~$AUS 665,000,000,000

thats enough to build 9000 of these solar power stations which can power 405,000,000 homes.

assuming theres 3 people living per home, that would be enough to give 1.2 BILLION PEOPLE WITH PERMANENT AND VERY CHEAP POWER. thats about the entire western world taken care of, instead it has been decided to spend that money to take over a small country.

theres alot of money out there thats being put to huge waste. if the major powers of the world just joined together and started investing heavily in alternative energies for a decade or two, we should be able to solve or put a huge dent in alot of todays environmental problems.

very good point!

It's incomprehensible! A trillion dollars! Jeez!
Just imagine how many global problems that could solve

 

[Captain Gh3y]

It's not permanent OR cheap at all; if you read the link in my post you'd notice the cost will be more than $50 per megawatt hour.

Solar power could never be used that way because it can't provide the base load required. It also only works when the sun is shining.

 

[Silver Persian]

Can't the solar panels 'store' energy from when the sun is shining to be used when it isn't?

And what is a megawatt hour? :<

"If Holland can get his costs down to $50 per megawatt hour, he is right in the play," says Brad Page <---It sounds to me like he is saying that $50 for a megawatt hour would make solar energy competitive/reasonable. I can't see anywhere in the articles where it makes an estimate of what a megawatt hour would cost currently...


I think the best argument against installing heaps of solar plants in Australia is that, in global terms, we dont really release that much greenhouse gases. It might be better for us to develop better, cheaper technologies that can be exported to countries that don't have billions of dollars lying around aka finding ways in which coal plants can be retrospectively greened up...

But then on the other hand, if we do undertake the solar energy thing, we will porably find ways to make them less expensive + more competitive with coal power.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

What's a megawatt hour indeed. Why comment if you have no understanding of basic economics or physics/electrical engineering?

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20652513-36281,00.html

More reasons why DeathB4Life's idea is ridiculous.

 

[hazaar]

Why comment if you have no understanding of basic economics or physics/electrical engineering?

More reasons why DeathB4Life's idea is ridiculous.

Why is this a prerequisite for making comments on this issue.

I think what DeathB4Life said is very pertinent.
Why are we spending trillions of dollars on a bloody war which is doing more harm than good, when the state of our world is in desperate need of attention.

There is so much money out there that goes to waste. We could very easily stop the problem in the next decade or so if we focus our attention on what is at stake.
It's all about mindset and we have to be open to a variety of solutions, the main aim being to save the planet from the irrevocable, lasting effects of human/commerical pollution.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Of course what you reall mean by "goes to waste" is "doesn't go to my pet issues".

You make a good point about it all being about the mindset, too. This whole thing is to get green votes, to appear to be doing "the right thing", even if it actually isn't going to make any difference.

 

[hazaar]

I can't belive how many people there are here that have NO VISION!!

This thread wasn't created to debate whether or not climate change/global warming is real. I created this thread because it is something that effects all of us and our ways of life. The thread was supposed to be a forum for people to voice their opinion on which technologies should be used to rectify the problem. BECAUSE THERE IS A PROBLEM!

It really infuriates me to hear people value the economy over the good of the planet.
It's the sort of ascendant attitude I have come to despise over the last 10 years. An attitude consumed by jobs and money. And I thought the youth were supposed to be more 'liberal.'

PLEASE PLEASE i don't want to politicise this thread.

Politics aside what do people think are the best solutions to the problem?

 

[hazaar]

Of course what you reall mean by "goes to waste" is "doesn't go to my pet issues".

You make a good point about it all being about the mindset, too. This whole thing is to get green votes, to appear to be doing "the right thing", even if it actually isn't going to make any difference.

Hmmm so i'm guessing that means you love war.
WOOOHOOO GO WAR!

YEH!! WAR's THE GREATEST!

YAAAAYYYY!! WAR!

 

[Not-That-Bright]

.....People have offered up what they think the best solutions are. Personally I'm sick of hearing about Solar power (It can be viable but this recent project is nothing but a grab for votes) and Recycling (Which is a waste).

 

[ur_inner_child]

Those new bins where general waste is smaller than the recycling bin has been implemented within the Bennelong area... (Ryde, Gladesville etc) as well as many other areas...

I think that's pretty successful.

 

[HotShot]

Those new bins where general waste is smaller than the recycling bin has been implemented within the Bennelong area... (Ryde, Gladesville etc) as well as many other areas...

I think that's pretty successful.

yeah damn bins:

we had two bins - one recycling and one general waste both same size.

now we have three:
one recycling + one garden waste - same size as before (same size as previous recycling bin)

one general waste bin - a lot smaller than recyclng bin.

Its a gud idea - cos normally everyone would just dump everthing into the general waste but now they have less space, so they have be more careful, and pluck recyclable materials chuck them into recycling bin to have more space.

gud idea.

yeah NTB has the right - not sure about nuclear power though. not in terms of the safety - but it seems nuclear is the way for many countries like india and china and it might be better to export uranium instead of consuming it. There isnt much uranium out there - but you dont need much rite? anybody know how much is used to generate a certain amount of power?

as for hybrid cars, electric cars - they should have been introduced ages ago, but they wont be for sometime cos simply the government wats those petrol taxes. and having electric cars will reduce petrol consumption means less revunue for the government + plus the mining companies wont like it one bit..

the fact is no one cares about the environment people think they do (like the greens) but they dont.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Those new bins where general waste is smaller than the recycling bin has been implemented within the Bennelong area... (Ryde, Gladesville etc) as well as many other areas...

I think that's pretty successful.

Why do you think recycling is a good idea? For example, let's say we look at the environmental impact of recycling/throwing away newspapers. First you have the extra trucks on the road which have to pick up the separate recycling bins, then you have the recycling process its-self (newspapers have to be bleached to get rid of the old ink on all the pages) generating excess toxic waste... it doesn't seem all that awesome compared with just burying the newspaper under the ground.

There are some situations where I feel recycling is feasible (particularily with metals, i.e. aluminium) but with paper it is just ludacris and I would claim detrimental to our environment.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Why do you think recycling is a good idea? For example, let's say we look at the environmental impact of recycling/throwing away newspapers. First you have the extra trucks on the road which have to pick up the separate recycling bins, then you have the recycling process its-self (newspapers have to be bleached to get rid of the old ink on all the pages) generating excess toxic waste... it doesn't seem all that awesome compared with just burying the newspaper under the ground.

There are some situations where I feel recycling is feasible (particularily with metals, i.e. aluminium) but with paper it is just ludacris and I would claim detrimental to our environment.

Hmm, you're right about the process. Although recycling paper, its aim is to lessen the amount of trees needed for paper... by using recycled paper, the demand is less. But as to the environment in general, you have a massive point.

 

[HotShot]

Hmm, you're right about the process. Although recycling paper, its aim is to lessen the amount of trees needed for paper... by using recycled paper, the demand is less. But as to the environment in general, you have a massive point.

Yeah NTB is right, after all that recycled paper is the same price or more expensive than fresh paper.

the same applies to plastic bags. i know many people use the plastic bags to dispose garbage. but if you ban it from the supermarkets - then have to buy those black garbage bags - which have probably have more plastic in them compared to maybe 100 shopping bags.

 

[ElendilPeredhil]

It's not permanent OR cheap at all; if you read the link in my post you'd notice the cost will be more than $50 per megawatt hour.

Solar power could never be used that way because it can't provide the base load required. It also only works when the sun is shining.

Solar panels can store energy, so that for example your lights would still work at night time.
Can you covert that $50 per megawatt hour into how much the panels would cost each household for say, a week? I don't understand why it would cost money though..apart from the inital expenditure on the panels themselves.

I don't think the panels would be cheap to put in, (something like $13,000 to install but since it is a once off payment maybe if the government subsidised it) but they would still work during cloudy days, even rainy ones. I don't know that solar power is the best way to power our homes anyway, I think solar cars, buses, trains etc would be a much better use. It's not that difficult to do, its just at the moment in Australia its expensive.

 

[Captain Obvious 1]

IMO...

- Nuclear power.
- More money into alternative(s) research.
- Government incentives to develop a hybrid car australians will buy (say a holden or ford).
- Government incentives to develop a hybrid work van.

That's on the assumption that Johnny isn't fucking the oil companies and big business of a friday night.... Which he is.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Although recycling paper, its aim is to lessen the amount of trees needed for paper... by using recycled paper, the demand is less.

If there are less trees needed for paper do you think as a net we'll have less trees? When demand for paper goes down it'd make sense to me that less tree's are planted.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Solar panels can store energy, so that for example your lights would still work at night time.
Can you covert that $50 per megawatt hour into how much the panels would cost each household for say, a week? I don't understand why it would cost money though..apart from the inital expenditure on the panels themselves.

From wikipedia:

For a stand-alone system, some means must be employed to store the collected energy for use during hours of darkness or cloud cover. The following list includes both mature and immature techniques:

* Thermal mass
* Electrochemically in batteries
* Pumped-storage hydroelectricity
* Molten salt[44]
* Cryogenic liquid air or nitrogen
* Compressed air in a cylinder
* Flywheel energy storage
* Hydrogen produced by electrolysis
* Hydraulic accumulator
* Superconducting magnetic energy storages

Storage always has an extra stage of energy conversion, with consequent energy losses, greatly increasing capital costs. One way around this is to export excess power to the power grid, drawing it back when needed. This appears to use the power grid as a battery but in fact is relying on conventional energy production through the grid during the night. However, since the grid always has a positive outflow, the result is exactly the same.

Electric power costs are highly dependent on the consumption per time of day, since plants must be built for peak power (not average power). Expensive gas-fired "peaking generators" must be used when base capacity is insufficient. Fortunately for solar, solar capacity parallels energy demand -since much of the electricity is for removing heat produced by too much solar energy (air conditioners)! This is less true in the winter. Wind power complements solar power since it can produce energy when there is no sunlight.

I do think Solar is a possible option, but I also think nuclear is up there too. Another big step would be electric cars... I imagine if Australia was completely nuclear powered with electricly powerered vehicles we'd have very little emitions.