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"Communism is the greatest evil unleashed on humanity" (4 Viewers)

Zeitgeist308

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fOR3V3RPINKKKK said:
By making everything on a voluntary bases, it provides no incentive to work.
Re-read the excerpt from the Paris Manuscripts. Your objection is answered there. Once the alienating nature of labour is done away with people will be motivated to labour and produce not only by physical necessity but for the fulfilment it offers them in accordance with their "species being".
 

Nebuchanezzar

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fOR3V3RPINKKKK said:
By making everything on a voluntary bases, it provides no incentive to work.
evidence plz

fucking dirty capitalist baseless presuppositions!
 

Enteebee

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LOL I think Karl Marx under estimates human tendencies.
If by human tendencies you mean our greed... wouldn't that support people moving more towards socialism? After all most people arguably would be wealthier.
 

moll.

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Ironically enough, it's possible that communism is actually approaching at the moment.
Think about it.
My understanding (which is admittedly limited) is that Marx preached about the emancipation and empowerment of the proletariat and the "little man".
In the industrialised world the proles virtually don't exist anymore, as these nations have moved beyond industrialisation to the post-industrial world.
The "little men" these days technically have the same rights as those of the higher classes, and it is vastly more simple in the modern world to move between classes than it ever has been in history.
Granted, the higher classes generally do have an inequality of opportunity, but income inequality is slowly decreasing.
At least now the higher classes are far more accountable for their actions than they ever were in Marx's time
Thus the classes themselves are disappearing, just as Marx predicted.
It is far more difficult to classify someone into a class these days, for obvious reasons.
Marx preached that national boundaries would disappear and there would be a united world.
The EU serves as a good example of continued integration between nation states with the eventual possibility that it will become just one large nation (although that is a lot less likely after the Irish vote on the Euro Constitution)
Marx preached that the government would eventually disappear as it was unnecessary.
In America, there is continued demand from the voters for the shrinking of the size and powers of the government, and it is a major promise of both the Obama and McCain campaigns.
Furthermore, the government of all advanced nations control virtually no companies anymore, and are continuing with their deregulation.

However, the biggest challenge to this is continued inequality between nations themselves, and the possible polarisation of the world into the China/Russia camp or the America/EU camp, which could result in devastating conflict.
Despite this, you cannot deny that we are far closer to a communist world than ever before, and that it could possibly happen, although it would be at least a century until there is substantial equality amongst and within nations.
But it is ironic that communism is coming about without people even consciously trying for it.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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foreverpink said:
d00d why u swear 4 u hating socialist
Ah indeed. What is my incentive? There is no money to be made, and yet I still do it.

Kapitalist pwned by Comrade Neb
 

Iron

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92BILLION on social security and welfare, followed by a distant ~40 for health
This is
an OUTRAGE
When the spagetti hits the fan, there is going to be a lot of fat to hoe into
 

melanieeeee.

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Iron said:
92BILLION on social security and welfare, followed by a distant ~40 for health
This is
an OUTRAGE
When the spagetti hits the fan, there is going to be a lot of fat to hoe into
how dare you. :mad:












equality for all.
 

Zeitgeist308

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fOR3V3RPINKKKK said:
Everyone is different. Not everyone will want to follow communism
Your right, after all, some people want to be exploited...

fOR3V3RPINKKKK said:
just like not everyone would want to follow capitalism but in the case of capitalism how people feel towards the capitalism doesn't affect the system
Well actually that's true an false. Whilst capitalism can retain the remnants of superseded social relationships within itself (ie. chattel slavery and semi-fuedal relations) it is always pushed to expand and introduce capitalistic relations within these societies to suit the accumulation of capital. So even if you and a few hundred thousand buddies of yours decide that capitalism sucks and you want to return to fuedalism on a small island in the pacific be prepared for imperialist expansion and neo-colonial "super-exploitation".

fOR3V3RPINKKKK said:
Its cause your a commie. You dont count
So much for human nature.
 

Zeitgeist308

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Iron said:
http://www.aph.gov.au/budget%20dummy/budget%202006-07%20mirror/2006-07/overview/html/overview_30.htm

SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE $$$$$
It's over comrades! You won! Or at least came in a close second! Lay down your arms! Return to your feilds!
To re-quote Engels for the third time in this thread:

But, the transformation — either into joint-stock companies and trusts, or into State-ownership — does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies and trusts, this is obvious. And the modern State, again, is only the organization that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution - Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Read it (and the articles by Aufheben linked earlier), for fucks sake.
 

melanieeeee.

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the conflict between the bourgeoise and the proletariat was the fundamental enduring division in capitalist society, driving economi, political and social change.
 
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Empyrean444

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Almost by definiton labour is external, and not enjoyable - a "labour" is often a trial or a tribulation. While labour is essential to a society, there are certain forms that are unenjoyable to everyone: hence an incentive is needed for it.

I am still unclear on how you believe labour can be made an internal part of an individual. How do you make labour a necessity to the individual? It relies on man having a feeling of belonging and essential committment to his/her society. This, of course, is problematic and hard to achieve. Most humans are really selfish when it comes down to it - people will die for a cause and do sacrifices/things for others, but this latter condradiction is generally supplementary to the former.

Brave New World has a like situation, in the creation of different castes of people - each suited to a specific form of work, but in reality this cannot be achieved. It is true that the poor/uneducated are often, through circumstances, forced into positions such as these - but at least they get paid , they get something in return. Having people working for society's good or for something else which somehow makes it an internal necessity still won't make them want/revel in working that job, because by nature it is still a bad job which doesn't want to be done - altruism and duty to society only goes so far.

So in a communism system, then, how will people be gotten to work these jobs? They won't flock to them for the good of mankind - for that is against their self serving natures. They would have to be forced into it. But unlike capitalism, they would get fuck all.

If i decide to take Marx's famous quote about abilities and needs, then all we are presented with is an alternate form of slavery. For true equality and freedom cannot be achieved - for example, as communists get richer, they become less committed to their ideology. Avarice is a common trait - it cannot be destroyed even by force. The operation of communism is impossible whilst this exists. Forcibly removing a trait like this from mankind cannot be done. If a proletariat rebels, i doubt they are going to take (materially/fiscally) from the bourgeios what is needed to make everyone materially equal and just stop at that. Neither would a government. Their own greed would commit them to take as much wealth as possible, and establish themselves as a new represive class.

It is irrational, illogical and useless to atttempt the achievement of an ideology that requires a change in human nature: if you read literature from the earliest parts of history to our contemporary, you will find that people have changed little. To change human nature is not really possible, making any such ideology, including Marxism, a chimera. It cannot be achieved in a pure form, so it is pointless to promote it or lament its inevitable failure.

Give me one Communism nation in the world that: a), is truly "marxist" (in all or most operations) and b), that hasn't become an oppresive oligarchy.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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I ran on a commie platform

and recieved two votes

meanwhile a capitalist ran on a muderous platform

and recieved four votes

*sigh*
 

Nebuchanezzar

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murderers are valued more in society than do-gooders

oh the pain of it all. :(

where's my lethal heroin injection?
stolen by capitalist anti-drugs platforms.
 

Iron

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People react to fear, not love. You wont learn that in Sunday school, but it's true

NIXON
 

Enteebee

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fOR3V3RPINKKKK said:
Under communism you take say... (to make things really simple) the top 5% or so of extremely wealthy people and you share their wealth around to the other 95%. So under such a scheme (if there's no other factors, people will definitely argue there are) for most people the greedy option should be communism.
 

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