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Originally posted by euripidies
But you said the world heath organization has a system of how births should be record and Cuba adheres to that method, now if the USA want to go of and use different methods of record keeping then thats their choice but according to the world health organization Cuba has a better Infant mortality rate.
Again, you're trying to claim some sort of victory for communism because Cuba's infant mortality is lower than the USAs. Explained this figure to death (no pun intended).

I was saying that the amount of resources you have has a significant influence on how much you can spend on health care. Its amazing how you can be logical when it suits you and when it doesnt be so stupid.
OK, so what you were trying to say was simply that if I have more, it's possible I can spend more on health. Thank you good Doctor, we couldn't have done it without you. I thought you were actually trying to say something a bit more substantial, less blatently obvious and/or actually relevant, so I'm forced to extrapolate a bit.


But that wasnt the point that point is that capitalism needs people to go without for something to have value.
And communism needs people to go without for an incentive to work. So what?

you like taking my quotes out of context youve gone this far to put two different quotes together, see no real argument other then to be misleading.
Explain what numbers you were referring to then, in reference to the paragraph I was quoting. Or is this just your way of saying "Oops, I'm just speaking out of my ass".


Umm youre not thinking right, you love taking my post taking them out of context and misinterpreting them.
What did I misinterperate? You were trying to tell me that under different cultures many would consider it wrong to allow retarded babies to be born, or something of the sort. I assumed all low weight babies were retarded and proved you wrong. What am I taking out of context?

Unless you start posting more coherantly and not just "YOU TOOK ME OUT OF CONTEXT 111!!!!!!!11eleventyone", I'm just going to quit.
 

euripidies

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"Again, you're trying to claim some sort of victory for communism because Cuba's infant mortality is lower than the USAs. Explained this figure to death (no pun intended)."

No it's not even communism. We were talking about developing countries and the effects of "free trade"(the current way its run not real free trade) on them. so i was saying Cubas health system is allot better then other developing countries of the same area.

"And communism needs people to go without for an incentive to work. So what?"

explain this point i thought i outlined the labour value theory ( which has one problem but you havent got it yet).

"Explain what numbers you were referring to then, in reference to the paragraph I was quoting. Or is this just your way of saying "Oops, I'm just speaking out of my ass"."

We were talking about the trend of women having babies older in the western world. Now you said your not an "expert on that how can you say" i said you dont have to be an expert to look at the numbers.

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so anyways this fight over the Cuba infant mortality rate is stupid because your thinking that i meant Cubas health system was better based on that fact. Which would be a totally miss interpretation. I was talking about in relation to developing countries of the same area.
 

euripidies

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Oh just wanted to say if I miss a point tell me because I dont mean to its just we have many different lines of thought going on at once.
 
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Originally posted by euripidies
No it's not even communism. We were talking about developing countries and the effects of "free trade"(the current way its run not real free trade) on them. so i was saying Cubas health system is allot better then other developing countries of the same area.
If it's not about communism, why did you even bring it up? This thread is a discussion about communism. If you want to talk about globalisation, make a globalisation thread.

explain this point i thought i outlined the labour value theory ( which has one problem but you havent got it yet).
You're saying capitalism needs to deprive people of things so they have to work in order to get these things. I'm saying "so what?", and that communism also needs to deprive people of things in order to get them to work.

We were talking about the trend of women having babies older in the western world. Now you said your not an "expert on that how can you say" i said you dont have to be an expert to look at the numbers.
What you said, with my emphasis:

One more thing Seeing that the USA has a hight rate of premature babies we have to ask why that is causes are such are pre natal care being reserved for those who can pay ( dont have this problem in cuba)-high drug use ( Cuba just doesnt have that problem) and stress caused by the American way of life ( form all accounts Cubas a peaceful place). also age is a big factor seeing that a lot of births are teenage and over 40s our days with women leavening having kids to older and older in life I dont know if this happens in Cuba or not but it seems to be a trend across the western world.
I agree there is a trend away from having babies at the traditional time, but I don't see any statistics you provided showing a causal link between low weight babies and:
* age of mother
* drug use (or statistics about drug use by pregnant women)
*access to health care
* lifestyle factors

so anyways this fight over the Cuba infant mortality rate is stupid because your thinking that i meant Cubas health system was better based on that fact. Which would be a totally miss interpretation. I was talking about in relation to developing countries of the same area.

Then WHAT RELEVANCE IS CUBA, and WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING IT UP? You want to defend an economic system which has been left behind by the world, how is talking about the infant mortality rate in Argentina related?
 

euripidies

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communism = every1 get 100UAI

Its a nice thought but communism isnt utopian its still realistic.

* age of mother
* drug use (or statistics about drug use by pregnant women)
*access to health care
* lifestyle factors

we all know these factors can have effects oh bobbies because the mother is feeding the baby so anything the mother has find Its way to the un born child. And access to health is important some first time mothers dont know how to cope extra stress can be a problem. But anyways this topic has become really off the original subject of the thread which is (if anyways forgotten) communist or Marxist because I dont think we have any anarchist in this forum.

Then WHAT RELEVANCE IS CUBA, and WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING IT UP? You want to defend an economic system which has been left behind by the world, how is talking about the infant mortality rate in Argentina related?

well you said show us a country over the last 50 years who has turned more inward and still improved its living standards. So I said Cuba and china, now both these countries trade without the outside world they just go about if differently. I mean every developmental economist would agree that investment is a key part of any plan to improve a LDCs economy.

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Now many people seem to think that left wingers have a problem with free trade and globalization, which would be wrong. People fall into the habit of going globalizations a bad thing, which its not if you stick to the idea of integration of countries markets with the lowering of trade barriers. But today we see the increased power of TNC which the CIA has invaded countries for. The new power that these TNC have means they are minimizing the power of government and thus the people. Now in Cuba they have in place strategies of attaining investment without giving the company too much power. to explain it basically the company pays a percentage of the construction cost and pays labour cost and receives inturn a percentage of profit when they development in finish and running.
 

euripidies

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There seems to be a lot of distortion of Marxism (along with other things ) on this site so Id think we have to do into a bit of detail on what a deformed workers state is and what state capitalism is.

Well on this idea of a deformed workers state Lenin criticized his own government saying this-

Our state apparatus is so deplorable, not to say wretched, that we must first think very carefully how to combat its defects, bearing in mind that these defects are rooted in the past, which, although it has been overthrown, has not yet been overcome, not yet reached the stage of a culture that has receded into the past." (Works, vol. 33, page 487)

This was not the only time he spoke like this

"At present the State Bank is a bureaucratic power game. There is the truth for you, if you want to hear not the sweet communist-official lies (with which everyone feeds you as a high mandarin), but the truth. And if you do not want to look at this truth with open eyes, through all the communist lying, you are a man who has perished in the prime of life in a swamp of official lying. Now that is an unpleasant truth, but it is the truth." (Works, vol. 36, page 567)

"The more such work is done, the deeper we go into living practice, distracting the attention of both ourselves and our readers from the stinking bureaucratic and stinking intellectual Moscow (and, in general, Soviet bourgeois) atmospheres, the greater will be our success in improving both our press and all our constructive work." (Works, vol. 36, page 579)

"If we take Moscow, with its 4,700 Communists in responsible positions, and if we take the huge bureaucratic machine, that gigantic heap, we must ask: who is directing whom? I doubt very much whether it can be truthfully said that the Communists are directing that heap. To tell the truth, they are not directing, they are being directed." (Works, vol. 33, page 288)

"But we have not finished building even the foundations of socialist economy and the hostile power of moribund capitalism can still deprive us of that. We must clearly appreciate this and frankly admit it; for there is nothing more dangerous than illusions (and vertigo, particularly at high altitudes). And there is absolutely nothing terrible, nothing that should give legitimate grounds for the slightest despondency, in admitting this bitter truth; we have always urged and reiterated the elementary truth of Marxism - that the joint efforts of the workers of several advanced countries are needed for the victory of socialism." (Works, vol. 33, page 206)

So Lenin felt that the USSR was not "socialism", not "communism", but a workers' state and Lenin was not afraid to add "with bureaucratic distortions". So he knew there was going to be a fight on to save the USSR from falling into bureaucratic capitalism or state capitalism. He even actively started to fight this until the time of his shooting because of this his health deteriorated till his death in 1924. so it was deformed because it had the seed of a new ruling class of which the new bureaucracy was to become and turn Russia into state capitalism.

Now state capitalism is where you have a new ruling class the state bureaucrats who control the means of production and gather revenue through extracting surplus value from the workers efforts, Thus making a new under class which are alienated from the means of production and the ruling class. Stalin completed this turning the people to nothing more then surfs attached to the state for labour.

some links for this -

State Capitalism by Peter Binns

State capitalism in Russia

Tony Cliff's State Capitalism in Russia
 

Calculon

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OMFG this is some heavy discussion. Now I got a headache
 
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Originally posted by euripidies
we all know these factors can have effects oh bobbies because the mother is feeding the baby so anything the mother has find Its way to the un born child. And access to health is important some first time mothers dont know how to cope extra stress can be a problem. But anyways this topic has become really off the original subject of the thread which is (if anyways forgotten) communist or Marxist because I dont think we have any anarchist in this forum.
Well, I think you're wrong e.g. babies used to be born to young mothers but anyway, I agree it's off topic.

So I said Cuba and china, now both these countries trade without the outside world they just go about if differently.
I'm not aware of Cuba's economic policy, but I don't think you could call China's industrialisation and increasing global trade/investment as becoming more inwardly focused. Also, an improvement in the standard of living means just that, an improvement, so you'd have to show some evidence of poor standard of living in Cuba (that wasn't due to some one-off factor) that has improved.

But today we see the increased power of TNC which the CIA has invaded countries for. The new power that these TNC have means they are minimizing the power of government and thus the people.
I agree with you that TNCs have a little too much influence, especially in small economies, but that's no reason to try and invoke some sort of conspiracy theory about the CIA promoting TNCs by invading countries. In the cases where corporations have got contracts after US/UN or other military action, they've generally been the best, or at least one of the best, possibilities. e.g. Haliburton (sp?), Iraq.
 

euripidies

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"OMFG this is some heavy discussion. Now I got a headache"

Which bit was hard to understand, maybe we could reword it for you.

"hehe 18 year old kids DO know all the answers to world politics...just ask them.'

Who said they knew all the answers to world politics? Because it wasnt me and it wasnt bush.
Anyways we 18 year olds are the next generation of leaders I dont think we could a worse job then the politicians are doing now.

Well, I think you're wrong e.g. babies used to be born to young mothers but anyway, I agree it's off topic.

But back then the infant mortality rate was a lot worse!!! But no more on this its really off topic.

I'm not aware of Cuba's economic policy, but I don't think you could call China's industrialisation and increasing global trade/investment as becoming more inwardly focused. Also, an improvement in the standard of living means just that, an improvement, so you'd have to show some evidence of poor standard of living in Cuba (that wasn't due to some one-off factor) that has improved.

Ok ill put it like this you need investment to develop well you develop a lot faster with investment then without. So Im not against countries getting out side help if its needed. But what I am against is Neo liberalism (started new thread to talk about this) other wise known us globalization in its current form. I talked about this before china under Mao looked inward and sort to feed its population with some 5 year plans such as the great leap forward (or backwards how ever you see it).

I agree with you that TNCs have a little too much influence, especially in small economies, but that's no reason to try and invoke some sort of conspiracy theory about the CIA promoting TNCs by invading countries. In the cases where corporations have got contracts after US/UN or other military action, they've generally been the best, or at least one of the best, possibilities. e.g. Haliburton (sp?), Iraq.

One of the main reasons the USA was vexed by Cuba was before the revolution the united fruit company and the Rockefeller family owned 51% of Cubas sugar industry well until Castro and friends nationalized it. Americans also owned 60% of Cuban roads rail and telecommunications. ( I got these numbers out of Terence cannons revolutionary Cuba{its a book}). So what does the CIA do they invade ( and get their ass kicked I might add). In Guatemala 1954 united fruit had some property nationalized so they decided to spread the idea that President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmn was a communist and go him thrown out of power by a liberation force ( CIA backed and commanded). What else is funny, Many Eisenhower administration official, including the Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles and his brother Allen who headed the CIA, owned stock in the united fruit company. In Chile 1973 Allende's government was over thrown by a military coup d'tat supported by the CIA and all because Alledne nationalized some property of united fruit. Now as you can see leaders have been assassinated and countries invaded, governments overthrown because of TNCs do they have to much influence? Yes they are becoming more powerful then governments.
 

neo o

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There is a difference between winning because you have proven your point, and winning because the other guy can;t be bothered to post anymore because you don't understand/won't conceed something that he's rather obviously proven.
 
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*~Dazed~*

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i have one thing to say... euripidies...
Learn how to Quote!!!!!!
 

euripidies

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Originally posted by George W. Bush
Hey, last time I saw you was on page 2! :rolleyes:


*rolls into the Holy City*
"Hey, guys! WE CHRISTIANS WON THE CRUSADES!.......guys? guys?"
im sorry, ill do it like this just for you.

Hey, last time I saw you was on page 2!
nar it was page 4.

"Hey, guys! WE CHRISTIANS WON THE CRUSADES!.......guys? guys?"
i thought they were still going seems that way.

There is a difference between winning because you have proven your point, and winning because the other guy can;t be bothered to post anymore because you don't understand/won't conceed something that he's rather obviously proven.
The thing is when ever we tried to talk communism or Marxism there was always a "Im not going to read your links or just a plain lapse in logic.
 

Alexander

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Originally posted by euripidies

The thing is when ever we tried to talk communism or Marxism there was always a "Im not going to read your links or just a plain lapse in logic.
This couldnt be an indication of the popularity of your brilliant ideas for humanity could it?
Either people ignore them as long winded, or successfully argue against them...using pretty good logic too, eg "it has never worked."
 

saladsurgery

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eh, i haven't read this thread, i can never be bothered following these long convoluted discussions. but this may or may not be of interest to you lot:

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/abril/vier9/16beca.html

Nearly 14,000 foreign students on scholarships in Cuban universities

CUBAN universities have welcomed more than 13,945 foreign students from
113 countries, via a cooperation program that is systematically growing.

This program, which is free of cost to the students, began in 1961 and
increased during the 1970s in response to requests by African and Middle
Eastern countries, mainly for middle-level education, according to an
April 10 article in Granma daily.

Francisco Martnez Prez, director of the National Office for Attention to
Foreign Students, explains that the overseas students have the same rights
and responsibilities as Cuban students; they may join the Federation of
University Students and participate in sporting and cultural activities.

Martnez Prez adds that the goal is for those students to return to their
countries and use their acquired education to the benefit of their
homeland, given that Cuba has no need to steal trained professionals, as
is the case with powers like the United States.

As of this past semester, 17,654 students had received their degrees, with
70% of them from African countries, and it is expected that the number of
those from Latin America and the Caribbean will grow during upcoming
semesters.
 

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