Does God exist? (18 Viewers)

[Captain Gh3y]

umm how is it different, in my opinion you pretty much consider science, the infaliable true writings, how is it any different if we quote the bible?

this picture is the best way to put it:

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/images/Science_verses_faith_flowcharts.jpg

 

[inasero]

Well actually here's the thing I also think all theists should be locked up and tortured to death, I don't need to justify this.

I never criticized anybody for being atheist, and my beliefs don't impinge on your decision to live life the way you want to...if that's what you're getting at. In fact pretty much this whole thread has been in defence of the Christian God and faith.

 

[Enteebee]

I never criticized anybody for being atheist, and my beliefs don't impinge on your decision to live life the way you want to...if that's what you're getting at. In fact pretty much this whole thread has been in defence of the Christian God and faith.

If you want to believe in God and just believe and say you don't need justifications then go ahead, it is utter dogmatism though and if this is what the intellectual debate from theists is coming to I'm saddened.

 

[*TRUE*]

I was being daft to show how silly it is to approach reality in such a way... You have a method by which you decide something is true independent of belief in God/The bible, I know this because at some point you decided to believe in these things. When I argue with you it is this that I appeal to.

So you are appealing to my free will to choose God or not?
Can i ask something which ive wondered for a while?
Why do u agnostics and atheists argue with believers?
I post here because i know how much my God loves you. As such , i care too , and my bible says that those who do not accept Christ spend eternity without him. I come here for a reason...to represent Christ.
What is yours? Do you really care? Are you convincing yourself of your beliefs? Just curious.

 

[Enteebee]

So you are appealing to my free will to choose God or not?
Can i ask something which ive wondered for a while?
Why do u agnostics and atheists argue with believers?
I post here because i know how much my God loves you. As such , i care too , and my bible says that those who do not accept Christ spend eternity without him. I come here for a reason...to represent Christ.
What is yours? Do you really care? Are you convincing yourself of your beliefs? Just curious.

Why do u agnostics and atheists argue with believers?

Christianity actively impinges on my world (i.e. Creationism in schools, Separation of church and state etc etc). I also dislike the way faith is used by some people to rip others off or to hurt people (i.e. 'faith healing' / 'miracle water'). Personally I also have a great hunger for the truth and believe that it can best be explored through a collaboration of clashing minds (at the very least it excercises the mind), let alone perhaps that selfishly I would love for it to be true that your God exists.

edit: To be more thorough so I don't have to post something like this later:

- Religion is a great tool to use to restrict someones freedoms.
- Religion is used to hold back society from social progress along rational lines.
- The debate is intellectually stimulating.
- Debating such issues promotes understanding between the two sides and will hopefully foster more meaningful engagements.
- Religion is used to create conflict with science/hold it back.
- Selfishly I would love for it to be proven to me that (some conceptions of) God does exist.
- Religion teaches people to be proud of their ignorance / not to defend their beliefs (dogmatism).
- Religion is a great way to prevent debate/criticism of something which would otherwise be greatly criticised as it is unduly respected.
- Religion affects political decisions made.

 

[inasero]

If you want to believe in God and just believe and say you don't need justifications then go ahead, it is utter dogmatism though and if this is what the intellectual debate from theists is coming to I'm saddened.

Well if you're looking for logical proof that God exists, I'm afraid you won't find any (just read the Bible verse true posted)- even if I tried to empirically prove God I'm sure I'd fail miserably. Faith is a very big part of Christian belief, along with an understanding that we're all sinful. As science doesn't have any answers for these "Why?" kind of questions, true's right in saying that we're arguing from different perspectives. All I can do is to share with you my supposed "FSM" logic if you want to see why Christians believe what they do from a Christian point of view.

 

[KFunk]

this picture is the best way to put it:

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/images/Science_verses_faith_flowcharts.jpg

That link isn't a happy one, but the image is too good to go unnoticed so here is another, hopefully functional, link:

http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15 -- science vs faith.html

 

[inasero]

Christianity actively impinges on my world (i.e. Creationism in schools, Separation of church and state etc etc). I also dislike the way faith is used by some people to rip others off or to hurt people (i.e. 'faith healing' / 'miracle water'). Personally I also have a great hunger for the truth and believe that it can best be explored through a collaboration of clashing minds (at the very least it excercises the mind), let alone perhaps that selfishly I would love for it to be true that your God exists.

I see where you're coming from, and I'm truly sorry for all these terrible things that have supposedly been done in God's name. However just as with any other religion, there are people who will distort the truth for their own selfish political and financial ambitions. I hope it doesn't deter you from continuing to seek the truth in Christianity.

 

[*TRUE*]

Christianity actively impinges on my world (i.e. Creationism in schools, Separation of church and state etc etc). I also dislike the way faith is used by some people to rip others off or to hurt people (i.e. 'faith healing' / 'miracle water'). Personally I also have a great hunger for the truth and believe that it can best be explored through a collaboration of clashing minds (at the very least it excercises the mind), let alone perhaps that selfishly I would love for it to be true that your God exists.

Christianity has done some wonderful things for the world Chad.


I hate some of the things you mentioned as much as you do. I went to a religious meeting once , where the (very , very famous) preacher asked everyone to raise their hands and they would feel a tingle on them , and tOHhat was God telling them he was there.
I raised my hands and prayed to feel that tingle. ( i guess i assumed if this preacher guy said it , God would do it , lol) I cant get over what a goose i was.
Nothing happened.
Oh the drive home i stared out the window and listened to my friends babble about their experience. I just stared and stared, i couldnt lie. When i told them the truth they just looked at me in a very odd way. Ive seen alot of bad things in the church , trust me.


I dont see God and Christianity as bad , but i see terrible things done in the name of them.
Even the best things can become warped and perverted.

 

[inasero]

Additional to what I posted about Christians and non-Christians using different arguments to justify/deny the existence of God, I suggest we give it a rest for a while and move on to the supposed Christian "FSM" logic, or way of thinking. Given where we're at I think it'll be a lot more helpful and help to defuse this situation where we've been going around in circles.

Here's a basic outline of the Christian faith which is pretty much common to all evangelical denomintions.

http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl/

 

[Enteebee]

I see where you're coming from, and I'm truly sorry for all these terrible things that have supposedly been done in God's name. However just as with any other religion, there are people who will distort the truth for their own selfish political and financial ambitions. I hope it doesn't deter you from continuing to seek the truth in Christianity.

I'm sorry but much of what is wrong with religion I see as merely a result of the deeper problem which is the underlying thinking, the modus operandi (in your case a dogmatic, ignorant one... I mean this with no personal disrespect). This is why I will often argue against other atheists when they promote moves which attempt to fight religion using the same techniques as religions do as I believe this will lead to the same flaws as we find within religions.

Christianity has done some wonderful things for the world Chad.

It's very hard to define what exactly 'christianity' is but for the most part I just view it as a bit of a filter, or rhetoric which can be used by people. The problem I guess I have with it then is that while both the good and the bad aspects of christianity can happen without the religion there, without the religion you simply couldn't defend such terrible thinking quite so easily (without perhaps replacing it with some political system that I would equally oppose).

 

[inasero]

I'm sorry but much of what is wrong with religion I see as merely a result of the deeper problem which is the underlying thinking, the modus operandi (in your case a dogmatic, ignorant one... I mean this with no personal disrespect). This is why I will often argue against other atheists when they promote moves which attempt to fight religion using the same techniques as religions do as I believe this will lead to the same flaws as we find within religions.

You might be interested to know Jesus was completely against corrupt religion too in his time! He called a sect of ultra-strict Jews a "brood of vipers" for one, even sharing meals with prostitutes and tax collectors. He was all about a personal relationship with God the Father and being changed as a result.

We don't deny that there are ignorant, sometimes even outright oppotunistic or malevolent influences in religion. However don't let that discourage you from seeking the spiritual truth in the Bible. People are fallible, I know that all too well. Fortunately God isn't.

 

[Enteebee]

You might be interested to know Jesus was completely against corrupt religion too in his time! He called a sect of ultra-strict Jews a "brood of vipers" for one, even sharing meals with prostitutes and tax collectors. He was all about a personal relationship with God the Father and being changed as a result.

I don't view religion as corrupt, I don't see it as an objective thing that exists which can be corrupted (i.e. there is no 'true' christianity). I view the thinking which leads to or at least seems to closely accompany religious belief as 'corrupt', for example your decision that there's no need for debate on the matter - You believe, that's it.

However don't let that discourage you from seeking the spiritual truth in the Bible. People are fallible, I know that all to well. Fortunately God isn't.

I do seek, I seek it using the same methods by which I seek the truth of anything else in my reality.

 

[*TRUE*]

I'm sorry but much of what is wrong with religion I see as merely a result of the deeper problem which is the underlying thinking, the modus operandi (in your case a dogmatic, ignorant one... I mean this with no personal disrespect). This is why I will often argue against other atheists when they promote moves which attempt to fight religion using the same techniques as religions do as I believe this will lead to the same flaws as we find within religions.



It's very hard to define what exactly 'christianity' is but for the most part I just view it as a bit of a filter, or rhetoric which can be used by people. The problem I guess I have with it then is that while both the good and the bad aspects of christianity can happen without the religion there, without the religion you simply couldn't defend such terrible thinking quite so easily (without perhaps replacing it with some political system that I would equally oppose).

Christianity to me is being a follower of Jesus = being Christlike.

 

[Enteebee]

Christianity to me is being a follower of Jesus = being Christlike.

but what does it mean to be 'christlike'?

 

[inasero]

I don't view religion as corrupt, I don't see it as an objective thing that exists which can be corrupted (i.e. there is no 'true' christianity). I view the thinking which leads to or at least seems to closely accompany religious belief as 'corrupt', for example your decision that there's no need for debate on the matter - You believe, that's it.

I think debate is just the thing we need and I'm not trying to brush it under the carpet. But what I was suggesting is that it might be helpful, given where the debates at, to explain why Christians use a different system of logic, or worldview if you like, in order to explain their faith so that you'd be able to see where we're coming from. After all I can understand how frustrating it must be that we continually cite 'faith' as a reason in our belief.

 

[Riet]

Well I'm sorry if that's the case. As Christians it's all we have to base and explain our beliefs upon, just as most atheists cite scientific justification (or lack thereof) for their beliefs so I only think it fair that it be given a hearing.

See scientific justification is on-going and peer reviewed and has been tested again and again as knowledge has being furthered. Saying: "I believe in God because the bible says so and I believe the bible to be true because God says so." is just ridiculous and unworkable position. Why don't you follow the Koran, Torah or Shruti? They all say that they are the word of god and you should believe in them because god says so.

Edit: Basically you can't compare the bible to scientific knowledge.

 

[*TRUE*]

but what does it mean to be 'christlike'?

To be like Christ. To act consistantly as he did. To take on His character.

 

[inasero]

but what does it mean to be 'christlike'?

Christ was so radically different in his time, and the NT synoptic gospels are full of examples. For example, he allowed himself to be crucified when he was the most perfect example of a human being who ever lived, even forgiving his persecutors when he was well within his rights and ability to smite them down. To be Christ-like is to aspire to come under the authority of Jesus Christ and live out our lives in such a way as to bring honour to Him in every circumstance. Practically, this means becoming more loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and self-controlled.

 

[Enteebee]

To be like Christ. To act consistantly as he did. To take on His character.

How did he act? Fred Phelps thinks you're an ungodly sinner who doesn't act at all like Christ. Prove him wrong... It's impossible.

Christ was so radically different in his time, and the NT synoptic gospels are full of examples. For example, he allowed himself to be crucified when he was the most perfect example of a human being who ever lived, even forgiving his persecutors when he was well within his rights and ability to smite them down. To be Christ-like is to aspire to come under the authority of Jesus Christ and live out our lives in such a way as to bring honour to Him in every circumstance. Practically, this means becoming more loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and self-controlled.

'good' 'loving' 'peaceful etc etc etc these are all such subjective terms and despite I'm sure your belief that you know the 'true' jesus every other christian will promote that jesus would have done something different.