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Does God exist? (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter MoonlightSonata
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Crestwood's_G
In Elegance
well no sex before marriage no drinking etc. u can have fun without those but they are a big part of most funhsb39 said:
darkwolfzx
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The bible doesn't say you can't drink, take drugs... Rastafarianism is a sect of Christianity. It's possible to take a reading of the koran that condones smoking ganja.Crestwood's_G said:
On the issue of how morals arise, there is an obvious evolutionary basis behind altruism.
All our major ethics can be seen as coming from evolutionary causes, including private property rights, freedoms from harm etc... can easily be seen as coming from biology. We protect our stuff, and ourselves.
A sense of justice, and wanting things to be 'fair' is born within all men. A legal system naturally eventuates from this. The nature of the minds of all living things mean we naturally strive for control and order.
Seems pretty simple to see how biology evolved values.
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I dont think biology can explain altruism... in fact altruism is against biology. Evolution is the surivival of the fittest, and when it comes to competition alturism would go down the drain.Graney said:
Its fairly obvious when you about to starve to death, you not going to give that portion of rice to another human being...
Perhaps i might of got it wrong but thats my take on it.
ummm i'm sure a bunch of miracles which seem to point to a god and are unexplainable by our current knowledge would be enough personally. But I can't think of a way in which something like a God could be logically proven... I suppose only a God himself would know the answer to that.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/Lukybear said:
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_doesn't_explain_altruism
Refute at leisure.
If I see a man starving to death, I would give him food as a kind of insurance. If I ever happen to be starving to death, it is more likely someone will give me food. We look after the needy in the hope that others will support us if we ever need it. Society as a whole (and humans are such social creatures) benefits.
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I thought we had this disscussion ages ago Enteebee... it is impossible to absolutely disprove and prove the existence of God just like one cannot disprove skeptiscm, we can only argue to the most probable way of creation...Enteebee said:
And Enteebee truthfully if some miracles do occur, you will not acknowledge it anywaz...
A big part of evolution is competition. There is some truth in that "I will rub your back if you rub mine", but that truly isnt altruism, rather selfish intent.Graney said:
Secondly competition disallows altruism? I thought thats obvious?
Lukybear said:
- Evolution does explain altruism. When organisms are faced with an environment that favors social organisms over non social ones, organisms will evolve altruism in that environment. Cooperation to achieve a goal a single individual cannot reach is a very useful survival strategy. Many animals use it, from packs of wolves to well-organized insect states. One ant means nothing; a million ants are a force of nature.
- As the development and maturation times of baby mammals (especially large ones) increased, groups of animals needed to work together for mutual survival.
- Altruism can come about in various ways, including:
- Reciprocal altruism - "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" with attempts to recognize cheaters ("You didn't scratch my back, so I won't scratch yours."). This serves to prevent selfish individuals from benefiting by 'leeching' off the group.
- Kin selection is assistance to a possessor of copies of one's genes, and it happens in numerous circumstances, like most cells of multicellular organisms and non-reproducing workers of social insects. Evolution would in this case set up a general rule of "help others who are likely to possess the genes for helping others". (This rule will be general - "help neighbors" rather than "help only relatives, and only those who will pass on their genes" - as most animals are not capable of reasoning as to whether a specific altruistic deed, such as helping an elderly animal that is not likely to reproduce, is actually beneficial). The energy wasted on helping animals that aren't relatives or don't reproduce must be outweighed by the benefits of helping those that are related and do reproduce.
- Examples exist for the clear benefits of altruism in the wild:
- One of the best documented examples of altruism in nature is that of vampire bats. Detecting and feeding on an unsuspecting host, as well as flying back to the communal roost on a full stomach is both time-consuming and energetically expensive for a vampire bat, and if a vampire bat is unable to leave the roost to feed, it will starve to death within a few days. Individuals in the communal roost, often those that are ill, have been observed begging food from healthy, recently fed neighbors and relatives. When these individuals had recovered enough strength to resume feeding activities, they were then observed feeding the same neighbors and relatives who had fed them previously. It is through this cycle of begging and reciprocation that social bonds in vampire bat colonies are formed and strengthened.
- In some birds, it has been observed that a strange new bird will enter into the territory of an established mated pair, and after acclimatizing itself to the mated pair, begin assisting with brood-rearing. In evolutionary terms, the pay-off is entirely long term, as, should one of the original pair of the same gender as the new-comer die, the new-comer will then be accepted as the new mate of the survivor.
- In many species of kingfishers and bee-eaters, the extended family of the mated pair, including the parents, aunts, uncles, siblings, and members of previous broods, will assist in raising the current brood. Not only does this ensure that older relatives see the continuation of their genes into a new generation, but younger individuals learn how to properly care for chicks in preparation for their own broods.
- Consider the multi-cellular organism. It consists of billions of cells, each of which has to grow, differentiate, mature, and die at regulated times. Cells which disobey this system, those which fail to die when the time comes, those who grow independently of the rest, in ignorance to the functioning of the rest of the organism, are cancer cells. It is thus understandable that in some biological contexts, self sacrifice is an evolutionary advantage.
You could argue its selfish to ever help others. Altruism may be a selfish act. Christian motivation for acting selflessly is only for benefit in the eyes of god and to receive acceptance in the kingdom of heavon.Lukybear said:
This isn't dismissing anything I said.
Kwayera
Passive-aggressive Mod
Woah, wait. It's never 'survival of the species'. Animals act for their own benefit (or rather the benefit of the genes), not for the 'species'; there may be species-level benefits of individual action, but we're essentially the only animal that can comprehend the concept of 'for the species' (and generally not very well).
Tully B.
Green = procrastinating
Are you speaking of any specific miracles? Like ones that I might be able to get in on? I wouldn't mind seeing a miracle...Enteebee said:
And none of that "trees, sunsets and baby's faces" crap.
Nor anything that remotely resembles David Blaine.
"Any unexplained SCIENCE is conceived as magic".
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Your suspect for the christian motivation for altruism is wrong plainly put. According to Christian doctrine altruism occurs, ie generosity, as the "fruits of the spirit", in that people are transformed when they believe.Graney said:
This is where self-altriusm vs spiritual transformation altriusm comes in. Only non-self kindness can be considered altruism whilst selfbased kindness is selfish.
My logic is very blurry but i hope you can follow it.
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I think this is wrong...Enteebee said:
Evolution is Natrual Selection. Natural selection is the survival of the fittest, in that the more offsprings are going to come from the stronger INDIVIDUAL. It is these offspring of ONE individual that makes up the spieces thus making it stronger.
This is analogus to our society helping the disabled, where we showcase altruism. However in nature, the disadvantaged organism will be less likely to reproduce and other organism of the same spieces will not help that disabled organism... thus altruism is not displayed.
Ofcourse being science as it is, everything must have exceptions, as pogintly pointed out with the ant example. It is true that some spieces of ants display altriusm for the "clan."
However generally speaking, altriuism is a normal characteristic of evolution...
This propagate us to a logical explanation of altriuism in humans...