Does God exist? (1 Viewer)

do you believe in god?


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Drdusk

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The purpose is to serve god. One can only do so if they are aware of religion.

Hence, those who have died due to invincible ignorance do not get punished, as they were not able to be exposed to religion. However, over time, as evident through the Indigenous Australian community, the information becomes accessible and it is at that stage where God tests whether one believes or disbelieves, and that is when the verse comes in.

I have already stated earlier why God does not just « enlighten » everyone.

And I have already stated that Islam started off very small, in the period of « Quraysh » in which monotheism did not exist and everyone who is Muslim today is as a result of the people who were once unaware, becoming aware.
Ya going on circles. I'm 100% sure you know exactly what I'm asking imao but just every time I ask this question to anyone from any religion I can never get a straight answer.

How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.

That is the question. God doesn't have to enlighten everyone and I never said anything about that. God sent Jesus as a messenger to a certain part of the world right? Why didn't god send a messenger like that to other regions that were untouched as well?
 

B1andB2

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Ya going on circles. I'm 100% sure you know exactly what I'm asking imao but just every time I ask this question to anyone from any religion I can never get a straight answer.

How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.

That is the question. God doesn't have to enlighten everyone and I never said anything about that. God sent Jesus as a messenger to a certain part of the world right? Why didn't god send a messenger like that to other regions as well?
It started with a few messengers, and it has grown to billions.

What makes you underestimate the power of information being spread overtime? It’s not a race?

The Quran itself was revealed gradually.
 

Drdusk

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It started with a few messengers, and it has grown to billions.

What makes you underestimate the power of information being spread overtime?
The fact that there are still tribes who are uncontacted and never serve god.

I'm not making any point around information spreading over time. A few messengers to certain parts of the world is how it started. An inclusive strategy that would lead all people at that time to the information of god would've been to send more messengers to parts that were untouched so those people could've had the opportunity to accept god but they were left without ever having the opportunity to know their true purpose in life.

Still this How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.
 

jimmysmith560

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How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.
Alawite Muslims can answer this question perhaps better than Sunni and Shia Muslims, despite their conflicting beliefs.

Alawites believe they must undergo repeated reincarnation before going to heaven. Assuming this is true, all spirits in this world will be born again as different individuals. This process will keep occurring until a person is finally ready to go to heaven (which probably implies that they will eventually accept Islam's message). This means that every person, including those who died and did not get a chance to be provided with the relevant information will eventually become aware of it.
 

Drdusk

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Alawite Muslims can answer this question perhaps better than Sunni and Shia Muslims, despite their conflicting beliefs.

Alawites believe they must undergo repeated reincarnation before going to heaven. Assuming this is true, all spirits in this world will be born again as different individuals. This process will keep occurring until a person is finally ready to go to heaven (which probably implies that they will eventually accept Islam's message). This means that every person, including those who died and did not get a chance to be provided with the relevant information will eventually become aware of it.
Now this is the kind of answer I'm looking for though that's a very specific 'sect'? of the religion I suppose, but the question still applies to all other religions or sects who don't have that sort of 'requirement'.
 

B1andB2

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The fact that there are still tribes who are uncontacted and never serve god.

I'm not making any point around information spreading over time. A few messengers to certain parts of the world is how it started. An inclusive strategy that would lead all people at that time to the information of god would've been to send more messengers to parts that were untouched so those people could've had the opportunity to accept god.
This is your initial argument reworded differently? Which is why I’m standing by my same answers.

It’s not a strategy that God is playing by. It is more so a process.

It starts of small and overtime people get the opportunity to accept or deny it, which is when God sees whether they have accepted their “role” or not, inviting the concept of heaven and hell.

If god was to send messengers everywhere so that everyone can immediately be enlightened he might as well make everyone Muslim to begin with. Again, I have already explained how this does not align with free will.

it is because god is aware that there are people who will die before they become in contact with religion that 17:15 exists.

And it is because this invincible ignorance is not eternal that the other verse exists. (51:56)
 

Drdusk

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This is your initial argument reworded differently? Which is why I’m standing by my same answers.

It’s not a strategy that God is playing by. It is more so a process.

It starts of small and overtime people get the opportunity to accept or deny it, which is when God sees whether they have accepted their “role” or not, inviting the concept of heaven and hell.

If god was to send messengers everywhere so that everyone can immediately be enlightened he might as well make everyone Muslim to begin with. Again, I have already explained how this does not align with free will.

it is because god is aware that there are people who will die before they become in contact with religion that 17:15 exists.

And it is because this invincible ignorance is not eternal that the other verse exists.
Well this really does not answer the question. If sending messengers to one part of the world is free will sending them to all parts of the world should still be free will.

In any case leaving all that it still defeats the purpose of serving god being the purpose of all humans life.
 

B1andB2

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Well this really does not answer the question. If sending messengers to one part of the world is free will sending them to all parts of the world should still be free will.

In any case leaving all that it still defeats the purpose of serving god being the purpose of all humans life.
What is the point of sending messengers everywhere when the information will eventually reach it?

You’re probably going to say “to serve the purpose that we are made for God”

But I have just stated that this purpose becomes apparent when one had the opportunity to either reject or accept religion,

The purpose of this verse is not as you’re making it out to be, where God could strategically make the revelation all happen at once to gain followers. I’ve said earlier, it’s not a race, it’s a process as evident through the fact that the Quran itself was revealed overtime and the religion itself grew overtime.
 

Drdusk

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What is the point of sending messengers everywhere when the information will eventually reach it?

You’re probably going to say “to serve the purpose that we are made for God”

But I have just stated that this purpose becomes apparent when one had the opportunity to either reject or accept religion,

The purpose of this verse is not as you’re making it out to be, where God could strategically make the revelation all happen at once to gain followers. I’ve said earlier, it’s not a race, it’s a process as evident through the fact that the Quran itself was revealed overtime and the religion itself grew overtime.
I'm just gonna call it peace here because there's no direct answer to the question. I did get a direct answer from @jimmysmith560 for a specific sect so I'll leave it at that.
 

cosmo 2

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this thread is a throwback to 2006 internet atheism

lmao i just went back to page 1 and it was posted in 2005 so go figure

why even talk about this in 2021 religion is a dead political and social force

even the (few) ppl who go to church don't believe the shit anymore and are there for wishywashy shit like "community" and "culture"

i have more respect for muslim suicide bombers than western practitioners of religion bc at least the former actually believe it
 

dan964

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Abrahamic religions' understanding of Jesus (seen as a prophet in Islam, not the Messiah in Judaism, the son of God in Christianity) and scripture (go back a few posts, I mentioned the difference in beliefs between the 3 religions) is perhaps different, but their understanding of God remains the same: God/Allah/Yahweh is the one eternal creator of all.
Yes - to the existence of one God who creates and is all powerful; and monotheism (there is only one God)
No - to their understanding of that God being the same. The nature of these Gods are different.
Christians know God as triune, Muslims do not, modern day Jews* do not. (Muslims have the concept of Tawhid). (*classical Judaism is disputed)
For both Jews (at least classically, if not generally) and Christians, there is the idea that God can be immanent (God's presence e.g. in the temple for Jews); while Muslims do not have (at least not in their holy texts), this same idea of God's presence.

Are the differences between what the Quran and the Old Testament say about Moses significant to the point where they overshadow the most important messages of the Abrahamic religions?
Yes they are significant enough, but that is another topic.

However, there is no conflict as to the existence of God in the Abrahamic religions (which is what we're arguing in this thread).
Yes, there are differences. But my point was addressing the Pascal's wager question. How Pascal's wager is typically presented, is like:
"If there is a God, better to believe in him (because if you don't hell awaits). If there isn't, well it doesn't matter anyways."

The problem with that is:
1. It is too broad, what does the belief look like? Because even if you take aside differences in who God is, from the different viewpoints, even the nature of true belief is different.
2. It does matter if God doesn't exist, because it means that most religions are a waste of time, because the foundational premise is wrong.
(which is the argument of atheism)

It is not just enough to establish that God exists but then you do have to ask what is this God like?
 

jimmysmith560

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Yes - to the existence of one God who creates and is all powerful; and monotheism (there is only one God)
No - to their understanding of that God being the same. The nature of these Gods are different.
Christians know God as triune, Muslims do not, modern day Jews* do not. (Muslims have the concept of Tawhid). (*classical Judaism is disputed)
The Holy Trinity doesn't really make any modifications to the nature of God, neither do the beliefs of other Abrahamic religions. We understand the Holy Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with the Father element being God. The only difference between Christianity and Islam/Judaism in that regard is the absence of the Son and Holy Spirit figures due to their lack of belief in them, leaving us with God. We might refer to Jesus as God, but that doesn't make him God the Father.

Tawhid (توحيد‎) literally means unification and this concept is not alien to Christianity.

For both Jews (at least classically, if not generally) and Christians, there is the idea that God can be immanent (God's presence e.g. in the temple for Jews); while Muslims do not have (at least not in their holy texts), this same idea of God's presence.
Are you sure God isn't immanent in Islam?

The word immanence means that Allah is involved in His creation. The word transcendence means that Allah is above and beyond human understanding. For Muslims, Allah is both of these things at the same time.

Some Quran verses:

‘He is closer to humans than their jugular vein’ (Qur’an 50)

‘And He is with you wherever you may be’ (Qur’an 57)

Yes they are significant enough, but that is another topic.
I don't agree with this. Moses is the key figure in Judaism, so obviously he's of crucial importance to the Jews. He is important in Christianity and in Islam but his events aren't significant enough to overshadow Jesus or Muhammad.

The problem with that is:
1. It is too broad, what does the belief look like? Because even if you take aside differences in who God is, from the different viewpoints, even the nature of true belief is different.
2. It does matter if God doesn't exist, because it means that most religions are a waste of time, because the foundational premise is wrong.
(which is the argument of atheism)

It is not just enough to establish that God exists but then you do have to ask what is this God like?
1. From Pascal's perspective, belief in God implies having the Christian faith (it is obviously biased since he was Catholic). Yet, we are trying to apply Pascal's wager to the different religions that we have today. Of course issues relating to incompatibility and ambiguity will arise. Despite the difference in the nature of true belief (as you mentioned), Pascal's wager remains a better alternative than atheism. Technically speaking, if a religion turns out to be true, an atheist who rejected God will have a chance that is significantly lower than a person who chose to become religious (even if the religion they chose doesn't end up being the true one).

2. What if God exists? What if we can't prove the existence of God to begin with? The same can be pretty much be said about atheism if the opposite were true. There are too many questions that can be asked back and forth, with no signs of a conclusive response from either side. Should we completely disregard/dismiss Pascal's wager because of rather minor concerns?
 
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this thread is a throwback to 2006 internet atheism

lmao i just went back to page 1 and it was posted in 2005 so go figure

why even talk about this in 2021 religion is a dead political and social force

even the (few) ppl who go to church don't believe the shit anymore and are there for wishywashy shit like "community" and "culture"

i have more respect for muslim suicide bombers than western practitioners of religion bc at least the former actually believe it
what do you smoke mate

can you send me some, i'm serious
 

SylviaB

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They died unaware and thus they will not be punished for not serving their purpose due to “invincible ignorance” (I keep saying this term because it describes it well)
Sounds to me like spreading the word of god is a tremendously BAD thing to do. If everyone who hasn't heard about Islam is spared from punishment, why risk their punishment by telling them it?

Also, we cannot "will" belief. Even if free will exists (it doesn't), we have no choice over what we believe or not. You absolutely cannot "choose" to believe that 1 + 1 =3. You can say it does, but you cannot choose to genuinely believe it to be true.
 

SylviaB

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this thread is a throwback to 2006 internet atheism

lmao i just went back to page 1 and it was posted in 2005 so go figure

why even talk about this in 2021 religion is a dead political and social force

even the (few) ppl who go to church don't believe the shit anymore and are there for wishywashy shit like "community" and "culture"

i have more respect for muslim suicide bombers than western practitioners of religion bc at least the former actually believe it

I think its a stretch to say islam is a dead social and political force
 

totally_screwed

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Sounds to me like spreading the word of god is a tremendously BAD thing to do. If everyone who hasn't heard about Islam is spared from punishment, why risk their punishment by telling them it?

Also, we cannot "will" belief. Even if free will exists (it doesn't), we have no choice over what we believe or not. You absolutely cannot "choose" to believe that 1 + 1 =3. You can say it does, but you cannot choose to genuinely believe it to be true.
I think in current times, with globalisation, technology, access to ideas and information, it's impossible for anyone on earth to have not heard about Islam. even the most remote of societies have access to some wifi and therefore some ideas. if you have heard about Islam but choose not to agree with it then you qualify for punishment (if Islam is the correct religion). spreading the word of god is a tremendously good thing to do in this case because you can potentially be saving someone's ass from Hell if you manage to correct their beliefs or change their worldview. literally every person I will ever interact with in my life is gonna know what islam is, if I wanted to talk about islam with them then I wouldn't be introducing a foreign concept, which is what you're acting like it is. I would just be shedding light on a religion that they either misunderstand or don't know too much about

free will does exist, you have the choice to believe what you want or not. and what kind of example is that. you can choose to believe 1+1=3, but unless you're braindead you would know this isn't true which would then lead you to not believe it anymore. it's hard if not impossible to believe something that you can establish is 100% untrue based on fact. if you say that free will doesn't exist in belief then you're saying free will doesn't exist in general. which is ridiculous because all the choices you make in life are entirely yours, like you're the one choosing to make a left not a right at the next intersection, nobody can force you to make a right if that's not what you want, as an example
 

not_sure

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I think in current times, with globalisation, technology, access to ideas and information, it's impossible for anyone on earth to have not heard about Islam. even the most remote of societies have access to some wifi and therefore some ideas. if you have heard about Islam but choose not to agree with it then you qualify for punishment (if Islam is the correct religion). spreading the word of god is a tremendously good thing to do in this case because you can potentially be saving someone's ass from Hell if you manage to correct their beliefs or change their worldview. literally every person I will ever interact with in my life is gonna know what islam is, if I wanted to talk about islam with them then I wouldn't be introducing a foreign concept, which is what you're acting like it is. I would just be shedding light on a religion that they either misunderstand or don't know too much about

free will does exist, you have the choice to believe what you want or not. and what kind of example is that. you can choose to believe 1+1=3, but unless you're braindead you would know this isn't true which would then lead you to not believe it anymore. it's hard if not impossible to believe something that you can establish is 100% untrue based on fact. if you say that free will doesn't exist in belief then you're saying free will doesn't exist in general. which is ridiculous because all the choices you make in life are entirely yours, like you're the one choosing to make a left not a right at the next intersection, nobody can force you to make a right if that's not what you want, as an example
See the problem with this is that our world is so complex that we can't even imagine all of the sociological, geographical, cultural factors that account for what religion you believe and your ability to believe in another. Point blank, free will is something we all have, but our ability to fully exercise it might as well be limited to a vacuum. You can't punish people for something so far out of their control as the factors contributing to their religion, and if islam or any other religion does than I don't really want anything to do with something so unempathetic.
 

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