Does God exist? (8 Viewers)

[pkc]

Yes theoretically but Captan Gh3y has already dealt rather effectively with the Crusade argument, it happened in the (relatively) distant past in a totally different historical context with totally different spiritual/moral values.

You are missing the point.

If the word of God and faith in the bible has such positive effects on people, as posts on here claim (loving your neighbour etc), then history should show that in situations where church has had strong influence peace and love would be encouraged as a result.

That's not the case...

"You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world."
[Bertrand Russell]

"When the churches literally ruled society, the human drama encompassed: (a) slavery; (b) the cruel subjection of women; (c) the most savage forms of legal punishment; (d) the absurd belief that kings ruled by divine right; (e) the daily imposition of physical abuse; (f) cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor; as well as (g) assorted pogroms ('ethnic cleansing' wars) between rival religions, capital punishment for literally hundreds of offenses, and countless other daily imposed moral outrages. . . . It was the free-thinking, challenging work by people of conscience, who almost invariably had to defy the religious and political status quo of their times, that brought us out of such darkness."
[Steve Allen]

 

[The Brucemaster]

You are missing the point.

If the word of God and faith in the bible has such positive effects on people, as posts on here claim (loving your neighbour etc), then history should show that in situations where church has had strong influence peace and love would be encouraged as a result.

That's not the case...

"You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world."

[Bertrand Russell]

You're going to have to elaborate on what you mean here. Its all very well to make such claims but you support it with nothing.

"When the churches literally ruled society, the human drama encompassed: (a) slavery; (b) the cruel subjection of women; (c) the most savage forms of legal punishment; (d) the absurd belief that kings ruled by divine right; (e) the daily imposition of physical abuse; (f) cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor; as well as (g) assorted pogroms ('ethnic cleansing' wars) between rival religions, capital punishment for literally hundreds of offenses, and countless other daily imposed moral outrages. . . . It was the free-thinking, challenging work by people of conscience, who almost invariably had to defy the religious and political status quo of their times, that brought us out of such darkness."

Well i say that most of these things happen today even when The Church doesn't rule society.

a) Slavery - Forcing people in poverty stricken countries to work in sweatshops for little or no pay and also the sex slave industry that is prominent amongst the poor in SE Asian nations.
b) Cruel subjection of women - http://www.marxist.com/Asia/women_in_pakistan.html
e) Daily imposition of physical abuse - happens all the time, just not in the name of God so much.
f) Cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor - If governments truly cared about the poor i think theyd be doing something about it. As it stands, a majority of the world's population still lives in poverty.
g Ethnic cleansing - The obvious one here is the Holocaust but there's also the Balkans (http://balkansnet.org/ethnicl.html), Kosovo (http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/kosovoii/homepage.html) and Western Sudan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61973-2004May27.html)

 

[pkc]

Well i say that most of these things happen today even when The Church doesn't rule society.

a) Slavery - Forcing people in poverty stricken countries to work in sweatshops for little or no pay and also the sex slave industry that is prominent amongst the poor in SE Asian nations.
b) Cruel subjection of women - http://www.marxist.com/Asia/women_in_pakistan.html
e) Daily imposition of physical abuse - happens all the time, just not in the name of God so much.
f) Cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor - If governments truly cared about the poor i think theyd be doing something about it. As it stands, a majority of the world's population still lives in poverty.
g Ethnic cleansing - The obvious one here is the Holocaust but there's also the Balkans (http://balkansnet.org/ethnicl.html), Kosovo (http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/kosovoii/homepage.html) and Western Sudan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61973-2004May27.html)

Exactly, and where are the strong actions of the church in standing up against these abuses?

The churches today are still a large wealthy and influential body eg catholic church, fundamentalist churches in US and have the capacity to stand up to issues and goverments far more than what they choose to do.

The extent to which they take a strong stand against the injustices you talk about only makes the point clearer that churches are more concerned about their own image, grandeur and self-interests than about the things they are supposed to lead the way on. They continue to let society down in a big way, and we continue to approve of them.

It would seem that the churches are enjoying a comfortable relationship with governments at the expense of leading the way on the fights for social justice.

This has been noted about the church in all ages, not just today....

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the ruling power, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"
[Letter to H. Spafford, 1814]

 

[pkc]

Religions have passed their use-by date.

Lets's replace them with more sensible views on the world that can still provide hope and direction.

Personally, I think having more faith in human nature has got to help. We are all aware that our future depends on our cooperation with each other and relying on that faith has got to be the way to go.

"A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of
punishment and hope of reward after death."
[Albert Einstein]

How about leaving all the explanation about the creation of the universe etc to science - I think they've shown they know what they are doing when it comes to getting to the truth.

 

[dilroy]

The theory of evolution and the whole planets story is far more beautiful and amazing than a God that created the world in a week four thousand years ago. Not to mention the evidence of evolution is more believable than some bullshit supreme being creating the entire world.

Think about it, Earth takes up less than 0.0001% of the entire universe and to think that some "God living in random clouds" created the whole thing is pretty ignorant.

God was created by Humans to keep control and boost our morals, now that we have modern technology and medical breakthroughs we don't need to believe because we have the abilities to look after ourselves... unless for those weak minded people. I mean there is no actual proof of a God other than some book and a whole load of crap made up by Humans and also some man claiming to be the son of God about two thousand years ago.

Religion has only ever caused war and destruction has it not?

 

[Dr_Doom]

The theory of evolution and the whole planets story is far more beautiful and amazing than a God that created the world in a week four thousand years ago. Not to mention the evidence of evolution is more believable than some bullshit supreme being creating the entire world.

Think about it, Earth takes up less than 0.0001% of the entire universe and to think that some "God living in random clouds" created the whole thing is pretty ignorant.

God was created by Humans to keep control and boost our morals, now that we have modern technology and medical breakthroughs we don't need to believe because we have the abilities to look after ourselves... unless for those weak minded people. I mean there is no actual proof of a God other than some book and a whole load of crap made up by Humans and also some man claiming to be the son of God about two thousand years ago.

Religion has only ever caused war and destruction has it not?

When it says god created the world in 7 days. It doesn't say how long those days were. And how do you kno evolution isn't the work of god?

Earth would take up way way less than 0.0001. That would be saying 10,000 earths fill up the universe. Where does it say god lives in clouds. Your the ignorant one.

I seriously hate when people like you come to this thread and claim they KNOW there is no god and they're 100% right 100% of the time. You have no repect for anyone or anything.

 

[pkc]

When it says god created the world in 7 days. It doesn't say how long those days were. And how do you kno evolution isn't the work of god?

/quote]

How do you know it is? What church believes in Evolution on the timescale that science does?

Eg. Presbyterian church believes 1 bible day = 1000 years. This makes the time between the creation of the universe and appearance of humans about 7000 years, rather than the 15 billion years estimated by science.

 

[_dhj_]

Sorry to disappoint you Dr Doom but...

there is no god.

 

[_dhj_]

When it says god created the world in 7 days. It doesn't say how long those days were. And how do you kno evolution isn't the work of god?

How do you know it is? What church believes in Evolution on the timescale that science does?

Eg. Presbyterian church believes 1 bible day = 1000 years. This makes the time between the creation of the universe and appearance of humans about 7000 years, rather than the 15 billion years estimated by science.

christianity changes its story to step in line with the developments in science, rather than the other way around.

 

[davin]

if god, then, IS behind evolution, why does religion tend to not like the idea of evolution and fights it? religion can't say "well, god could be doing that, too" while also decrying the idea of evolution

Your the ignorant one.

 

[_dhj_]

Religion's responses to scientific advancement (and indeed, the progressive values of society) are quite ad hoc. Their main concern is trying to uphold the notion that god does exist no matter what. For example, most Christians now believe that parts of the bible shouldn't be taken "literally", and I'd be surprised if there are still many people who actually believe in the seven day theory despite the evidence against it (yes, I'd say archeological evidence is more valid than some single book). But that simply means that key parts of olden day Christian belief were wrong.

Religion always had a place in society and still does - its purpose is to give people comfort in their existance despite their circumstances and fears. It's also comforting for humanity to refer to things that they don't understand as "work of god", since there is definatively no need to understand why god existed in the first place. That latter purpose is fading as times move forward.

 

[Dr_Doom]

Sorry to disappoint you Dr Doom but...

there is no god.

Prove it.

 

[_dhj_]

Prove it.

The onus is on you to prove that there is a God. You don't assume that something exists without being provided with sufficient evidence.

 

[Dr_Doom]

No the onus is on you to prove that their isn't a god.

 

[_dhj_]

i noe u r, but waht am i??

 

[Dr_Doom]

So immature.. But you are an athiest.

 

[davin]

No the onus is on you to prove that their isn't a god.

Dr. Doom, do you mean to say that you believe in aliens, bigfoot, the loch ness monster, sea surpents, alchemy, cold fusion, cars that run on water, magic, fairies, lepruchauns, astrology, unicorns, the chupacabra, ghosts, and ESP?

 

[Dr_Doom]

Dr. Doom, do you mean to say that you believe in aliens, bigfoot, the loch ness monster, sea surpents, alchemy, cold fusion, cars that run on water, magic, fairies, lepruchauns, astrology, unicorns, the chupacabra, ghosts, and ESP?

I don't see how this is relavent. but some cars do run on water. And GOD is more than just an entity. So you can't compare GOD to unicorns and ghosts.

 

[davin]

it is relevant because you made the statement that no one has to prove anything, other people just have to disprove it, which is entirely backwards. the burden of proof rests on the person making a claim, not the person that is skeptical and asking for proof before believing something.
i also don't see why you claim that god is 'more than just an entity'

to be more extreme, if i said that you spent a night a couple weekends ago worshipping satan, sacrificed a 12-year old boy to him, then had sex with a goat , the first question any reasonable person would ask is if i had any proof for that. I couldn't very well say "well, you have to DISprove it"

 

[pkc]

I don't see how this is relavent. but some cars do run on water. And GOD is more than just an entity. So you can't compare GOD to unicorns and ghosts.

Its extremely relevant, because it shows how stupid it sounds to believe in something just because it can't be proved to be not true.

Reasonable claims are based on reasonable evidence, and extraordinary claims (like the existence of gods) require extraordinary evidence...and you havent put up any.

On the other hand evolution by natural selection does have much evidence to support it.