Does God exist? (45 Viewers)

[_dhj_]

What about cases of logical impossibility, e.g. a cyclops which has only one leg and which has only two legs. I reckon any conception of god which requires god to be both 'X' and 'not-X' (where X is some precise description) can be logically excluded without much trouble. I do, however, agree that the burden of proof lies with those who wish to argue that god exists (I have explained before that this needs to be the case, otherwise we are lead to accepting the existence of all beings whose existence cannot be disproved).

I think the problem is that it's so easy for believers to claim that god's existence is outside the 'realm of logic', not because of the mere fact that it is supernatural, but because it is arguably a metaphysical question. Of course, that argument does not hold for the purpose of establishing god's existence within the realm of logic.

 

[stargaze]

First off I am a Christian but I've been out of Christian circles long enough I think to have a bit more of an open mind and I have some serious reservations about Christianity too. (But that's more on the state of Christianity in recent times).

If God knew I was going to be an atheist from the start, and was therefore doomed from the very beginning, why am I responsible for not believing in him and being punished for it?

ANyway. I hope I'm not just saying stuff that's already been said, but the biblical belief is that God knows all. By all I mean He knows of your past and all the future. You/we are responisble because despite him knowing that perhaps you would choose not to belief, it was ultimately your conscious decision.

Why did he let me exist in the first place? I have a doomed fate, what is therefore my purpose? To keep believers company?

Are you suggesting that God should only create peoples that He knows will be believers?

This may be a bit off topic, but I think in church circles there is always a little smug feeling that those in church that sunday morning are 'saved/in the light/on the right path/with purpose' and those "yet to know God" are 'in the dark/on the wrong path/without purpose." And frankly I don't see it. Some of the most purposeful, driven and passionate people I know have completely no interested in God of any sort.

 

[_dhj_]

ANyway. I hope I'm not just saying stuff that's already been said, but the biblical belief is that God knows all. By all I mean He knows of your past and all the future. You/we are responisble because despite him knowing that perhaps you would choose not to belief, it was ultimately your conscious decision.

But if he knew of your past and future at any point in time, it follows that you can only have one possible future (determinism). How then do you make a 'decision' at all along the chain of causation?

 

[stargaze]

I think the problem is that it's so easy for believers to claim that god's existence is outside the 'realm of logic', not because of the mere fact that it is supernatural, but because it is arguably a metaphysical question. Of course, that argument does not hold for the purpose of establishing god's existence within the realm of logic.

Problem indeed!

What would you need to conclusively believe that there is a God?

 

[AAO89]

A Plague On Both Your Houses!!! :d

 

[KFunk]

I think the problem is that it's so easy for believers to claim that god's existence is outside the 'realm of logic', not because of the mere fact that it is supernatural, but because it is arguably a metaphysical question. Of course, that argument does not hold for the purpose of establishing god's existence within the realm of logic.

Personally I would argue that even god is not immune to logic - for example, I would advance the 'an omnipotent being could not create a rock that they could not lift' argument to argue for a weaker form of omnipotence. However, I have seen people advance the 'god is beyond logic' argument in this thread before. To me this reads as a last ditch effort --> where one is stuck with a deity so riddled with contradiction that they have to throw logic out the window. In particular I don't like that move because it removes people from the debate entirely, for they are no longer subject to reason, justification or validity. It allows people to assert 'X is true, and logic can't touch this... the end.'

Something that I am more partial to is a debate over what is the correct logic (if there is one) or, more specifically, what is the correct logic for this particular debate. I have some interest in paraconsistent logics (logics which admit contradiction), though I don't like my chances of finding many people who share this interest .

 

[Geezer28]

The onus of proof is indeed on the experimenters who are attempting to prove a particular hypothesis. However, not if they are not trying to prove it. I never came into this thread attempting to prove God's almighty existence, I simply laid on the table why I believe in God, and it's not based on what I can see or hear, or "prove". It's based on feeling and faith. I've been to Church, and tell me it's psychological (Hell, I could tell you, I'm a Psychology student), but I have felt something in Church that I have never felt anywhere else. And to be honest, if at the end of it all, I die and there's nothing - So what? Everybody's in the same boat. But I'm not going to be angry at God for a few reasons. 1) I wouldn't be alive anymore, and 2) Even if I was alive, I would have had a great life anyway.

But you know what? This WORKS for me. I'm having a great life, I have fun in Church, I'm a happy person. Whether or not you believe I'm deluded or mislead has no bearing on that.

We'll never prove God exists, because God doesn't want to be PROVEN to exist. He just wants people to find him. If that doesn't make sense to your logic, try and see it (God forbid) from His point of view. He didn't want to create a tribe of robots. He made people, imperfect, with feelings and decisions. And I believe He's going to wait until people need him the most, and then they'll have the chance to find Him.

 

[rosiemorrison]

my personal theory is that the bible was not spossed to be taken literally, rather a book of fables to help insight morality. (though not alot of morality has ome out of religion.) in my opinion, there is no god - no higher power even.

 

[bored6]

The onus of proof is indeed on the experimenters who are attempting to prove a particular hypothesis. However, not if they are not trying to prove it. I never came into this thread attempting to prove God's almighty existence, I simply laid on the table why I believe in God, and it's not based on what I can see or hear, or "prove". It's based on feeling and faith. I've been to Church, and tell me it's psychological (Hell, I could tell you, I'm a Psychology student), but I have felt something in Church that I have never felt anywhere else. And to be honest, if at the end of it all, I die and there's nothing - So what? Everybody's in the same boat. But I'm not going to be angry at God for a few reasons. 1) I wouldn't be alive anymore, and 2) Even if I was alive, I would have had a great life anyway.

But you know what? This WORKS for me. I'm having a great life, I have fun in Church, I'm a happy person. Whether or not you believe I'm deluded or mislead has no bearing on that.

We'll never prove God exists, because God doesn't want to be PROVEN to exist. He just wants people to find him. If that doesn't make sense to your logic, try and see it (God forbid) from His point of view. He didn't want to create a tribe of robots. He made people, imperfect, with feelings and decisions. And I believe He's going to wait until people need him the most, and then they'll have the chance to find Him.

Yep your definately mislead and / or deluded.

Poor soul.

 

[Geezer28]

Good reply.

 

[ur_inner_child]

my personal theory is that the bible was not spossed to be taken literally, rather a book of fables to help insight morality.

again, isn't it worrying? I suppose not really for you, considering you don't believe in a higher power, but for those who do... I mean, even if it is meant to be interpreted for its didactic element, everyone's opinion will still differ. People will still be selective about what and what not to follow. How can the book that is meant to govern the rights and wrongs of humanity be possibly taken so lightly?

I mean, God's asking for religious wars, discrimination, homophobia, misogyny etc. He was really asking for it when he set down a book and went "lol. stories".

 

[HKHSCstudent]

I do strongly support God exists as a christian. God has changed my life. When I feel sad , when I encountered difficulties , I will pray to God for help. If God doesn't exist, how can this world be made? How can human be created? God said he uses his image to create us ! Believe in Jesus ! He will change your life ! Being a christian is the best thing in the world! You can get a everlasting life ! I do believe if we put our trust in him, God will help us all to overcome difficulties in our HSC!

 

[HKHSCstudent]

The onus of proof is indeed on the experimenters who are attempting to prove a particular hypothesis. However, not if they are not trying to prove it. I never came into this thread attempting to prove God's almighty existence, I simply laid on the table why I believe in God, and it's not based on what I can see or hear, or "prove". It's based on feeling and faith. I've been to Church, and tell me it's psychological (Hell, I could tell you, I'm a Psychology student), but I have felt something in Church that I have never felt anywhere else. And to be honest, if at the end of it all, I die and there's nothing - So what? Everybody's in the same boat. But I'm not going to be angry at God for a few reasons. 1) I wouldn't be alive anymore, and 2) Even if I was alive, I would have had a great life anyway.

But you know what? This WORKS for me. I'm having a great life, I have fun in Church, I'm a happy person. Whether or not you believe I'm deluded or mislead has no bearing on that.

We'll never prove God exists, because God doesn't want to be PROVEN to exist. He just wants people to find him. If that doesn't make sense to your logic, try and see it (God forbid) from His point of view. He didn't want to create a tribe of robots. He made people, imperfect, with feelings and decisions. And I believe He's going to wait until people need him the most, and then they'll have the chance to find Him.

totally agree with you
!

 

[ism]

Using meme theory from an athiestic perspective the religions that are immune to logic, and therefore more difficult to disprove, are more likely to survive. So the encouragement of irrationality is an essential characteristic for a succesful religion (which is pretty self-evident).

It then follows that any arguments based on logic are very unlikely to disprove a believer, although this provides no evidence regarding the ultimate truths either way.



On another note, assuming that such a universe could exist, what would a universe with no creator look like? how would it differ from this one?

 

[Enteebee]

Immune to logic? I completely disagree... with that idea, people can be ignorant all they want but they'll (other than through insanity) never be immune.

 

[ilovecommunism]

回复: Re: Does God exist?

my personal theory is that the bible was not spossed to be taken literally, rather a book of fables to help insight morality. (though not alot of morality has ome out of religion.) in my opinion, there is no god - no higher power even.

our will to power!!!...xD

hmmm... just passed by... i'm a skeptic

 

[gods-lil-rocker]

If God knew I was going to be an atheist from the start, and was therefore doomed from the very beginning, why am I responsible for not believing in him and being punished for it? Why did he let me exist in the first place? I have a doomed fate, what is therefore my purpose? To keep believers company?

if he didnt create you... you wouldnt be making the choice to not follow him... that isn't fair...

 

[Tulipa]

if he didnt create you... you wouldnt be making the choice to not follow him... that isn't fair...

But God knew she was going to make that choice, so why did he create her?

 

[stargaze]

But if he knew of your past and future at any point in time, it follows that you can only have one possible future (determinism). How then do you make a 'decision' at all along the chain of causation?

I don't quite follow sorry. Could you rephrase?

 

[stargaze]

But God knew she was going to make that choice, so why did he create her?

What would you propose he do?