Does God exist? (15 Viewers)

[Kwayera]

I think it's fair to say many agnostics are atheists if you define atheism as "lack of belief in gods". It's just easier to say "atheist" than "atheist in practice, but if you want to get technical, due to the nature of gods I do admit there is an infinitesimal chance one does exist". I'm preaching to the choir here though. Just don't want to study physics.

Lol yes. That's actually what I am - in practice an atheist, but theoretically an agnostic.

 

[veloc1ty]

prove it then. everything argument you make is an inference based on events that took place millions of years ago. there is no way we will ever be able to 'prove' evolution or the big bang theory. 'conclusive' was the key word. it will remain a theory until it is proven and becomes a law. which at this point it has not.

Evolution is FACT. The theory of evolution will always be a theory.

But it's not just a theory.

 

[axlenatore]

ask him yourself

 

[Fr33Lanc3r]

I think it's fair to say many agnostics are atheists if you define atheism as "lack of belief in gods". It's just easier to say "atheist" than "atheist in practice, but if you want to get technical, due to the nature of gods I do admit there is an infinitesimal chance one does exist". I'm preaching to the choir here though. Just don't want to study physics.

There is a distinct difference between atheists and agnostics.

Atheists beleive that there is no God or higher power controling the universe.
Agnostics are undecided on the matter (I.E. There may be a God, but there may not be.)

Also, I've got an Agnostic friend, and he really hates both sides of the argument. He told me to say that neither of us have any room to consider the other's arguments.

So i'm considering.
It is also thought amongst radical christian circles that God may have used evolution as a way to create the life on the planet. It is also generally agreed that there was something before the big bang. Most christians believe the big bang was a result of God saying 'Let there be light'. I agree, it was probably a very large noise when God spoke.

Evolution is FACT. The theory of evolution will always be a theory.

But it's not just a theory.

I dissagree with this. A theory is simply a Hypothesis that has been generally accepted by the scientific community as a possible way of thinking about a particular problem. Also, there has been no conclusive evidence that suggests anything on this earth has been a product of evolution.

Here are some links

http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml
http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/evoluwrong.html
http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp
http://www.frankcaw.com/science.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080323165448AA8yZal

there are many more links (just google it) with evidence on both sides. But it cannot be ignored that there is no fundamental scientific proof the evolution is the way that life on this planet originated.

 

[Kwayera]

I dissagree with this. A theory is simply a Hypothesis that has been generally accepted by the scientific community as a possible way of thinking about a particular problem.

Incorrect.

Also, there has been no conclusive evidence that suggests anything on this earth has been a product of evolution.

there are many more links (just google it) with evidence on both sides. But it cannot be ignored that there is no fundamental scientific proof the evolution is the way that life on this planet originated.

Yes there is. Holy FSM, are you daft or just blind?

"Evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next." (Biology - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, W H Freeman). This has been proven.

 

[mophead]

The simple facts are that God is a being that denies reason, especially through his follower Paul, but in all incarnations.
Belief in God can make one happy but all babies are happy most of the time, because they dont know any better.Would you rather remain a child?
growing up is only acheived through the growth of reason and logic otherwise our society stagnates and stops moving onward.

The idea that God doesnt want us to be able to reason is evil, and the idea of him letting us reason is stupid. He gave us the ability to eat the apple and since he is omniscient he knew we would eat it. Since he created us when he created us he did so in such a way that inclined us to eat the apple. He tried to go against his own programming and ironically and so so sweetly failed.

Belief in god isnt stupid, and it doesnt stop you being smart despite what many fledgling atheists will say. it does stop you getting smarter because anytime you fail to understand something you will attribute it to god rather than try to understand.

Oh and the argument that AIDS is a punishment? deeply stupid
because AIDS has been combatted. its mortality rate is down 80% since we discovered it and we can live up to 20 years with it nowadays. So have we become more virtuous? I dont think so
all disease is a result of sin? ok then we combat it with medicine which we inveted without and in fact in defiance of god (up yours Raphael) where is our punishment for that? so when i get a cold cos someone took the lords name in vain (a twisted concept by itself as God has punished the innocent. Imagine if all of Australia was punished for locking up the refugees or the Cronulla riots) and then when i treat the cold with cold medicine, where is my punishment for the uitlisation of the science which God and some of his dumber followers so passionatley hate.

If your saying that the environment is rebelling against our rebellion against god, then why wouldnt prayer, a sudden adherence to god or a decleration of subservience to the lord heal the malady? why doesnt god step in and do this for the pious? hes worked around nature before apparently and he didnt require oaths of allegience back then? why now?
and until faith healings are proven dont even try to say that he does, all double blind tests for faith healing have failed, placebo effect doesnt even occur in some cases

 

[Fr33Lanc3r]

Quote:​

Originally Posted by Fr33Lanc3r
"An omnipotent, omnipresent being, who is the creator of all things."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr33Lanc3r
"yes, there is free will. But there is also sin."



How can God be omnipotent but not know of the future actions of his people.
If God knows all, he knows the decisions that people will do, thus free will does not exist, and thus determinsm does.
An omnipotent god and free will can not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr33Lanc3r
"Atheists have to be the stupidest people i know.
"Case one: If god doesn't exist, the atheists are condeming everyone to nothing after death (Slightly depressing and boring)
Case two: If god exists they are condemming themselves to hell (not a much better option than nothing)
Case three: If the Christians are right, we get eternal life with God.
"

The others presented case four, and case 5, etc etc, to show that other religions can see christians as the "stupidest people" they know. Theres a technical phrase to call your argument, but ive forgotten

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr33Lanc3r
"The logical progression from the big bang theory that something sparked it"


Sure something sparked it. Sure let as assume this as a higher power. However this does not prove that this higher power is omnipotent, omniscient, or even cares about us.

Free will and omnipotence can go hand in hand. God does not micromanage the universe (Traditionalist Christians can stone me for that). He does have a plan for each person's life, and if you are a christian his spirit is gently nudging you in the direction of that, but he does not force you to follow it.

With the case arguments, we are arguing the existance of God, rather than which religion is correct. Whether the Christians are right or the musilms are right is irrelevant. If the Muslims are right the atheists are still wrong, and a higher power does still exist. I have already said that before (Read the posts morons!)

As to the question concerning whether God cares for us, consider this. If he is an omnipresent and omnipotent being (in three persons as the trinity of Father, Son and Spirit) he does not need us to be companions to him. He created us because he wants us as companions.​

 

[Graustein]

There is a distinct difference between atheists and agnostics.

Atheists beleive that there is no God or higher power controling the universe.
Agnostics are undecided on the matter (I.E. There may be a God, but there may not be.)

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Neither are theism and agnosticism.
Agnosticism is not being undecided, agnosticism is "we don't know for sure". There is absolutely no reason you can't believe in god and not be agnostic, and absolutely no reason you can't NOT believe in god and not be agnostic.
To be agnostic is to hold that we don't know for sure, and that's it. You can have an opinion, or you may not. A strong atheist says "there is no god". An agnostic atheist says "I don't think there is a god, but we don't know for sure". A strong theist says "God exists". An agnostic atheist says "I think God exists".
One is stating it as fact, the other is stating it as opinion. The former allows no room for argument. God does exist or God does not exist.

Again, agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive, neither are agnosticism and theism. There is no reason you can't say "God might exist but I don't think he does" and leave it at that. That's called agnostic atheism. You can say "Well, there's no way to be 100% certain, but I have faith that God exists". To be agnostic is to recognise that we can't yet conclusively prove it one way or the other in a way that satisfies both parties.

 

[Fr33Lanc3r]

The simple facts are that God is a being that denies reason, especially through his follower Paul, but in all incarnations.
Belief in God can make one happy but all babies are happy most of the time, because they dont know any better.Would you rather remain a child?
growing up is only acheived through the growth of reason and logic otherwise our society stagnates and stops moving onward.

The idea that God doesnt want us to be able to reason is evil, and the idea of him letting us reason is stupid. He gave us the ability to eat the apple and since he is omniscient he knew we would eat it. Since he created us when he created us he did so in such a way that inclined us to eat the apple. He tried to go against his own programming and ironically and so so sweetly failed.

Belief in god isnt stupid, and it doesnt stop you being smart despite what many fledgling atheists will say. it does stop you getting smarter because anytime you fail to understand something you will attribute it to god rather than try to understand.

Oh and the argument that AIDS is a punishment? deeply stupid
because AIDS has been combatted. its mortality rate is down 80% since we discovered it and we can live up to 20 years with it nowadays. So have we become more virtuous? I dont think so
all disease is a result of sin? ok then we combat it with medicine which we inveted without and in fact in defiance of god (up yours Raphael) where is our punishment for that? so when i get a cold cos someone took the lords name in vain (a twisted concept by itself as God has punished the innocent. Imagine if all of Australia was punished for locking up the refugees or the Cronulla riots) and then when i treat the cold with cold medicine, where is my punishment for the uitlisation of the science which God and some of his dumber followers so passionatley hate

Read the Book of Romans, it is too long for me to quote the relavant sections here, and answers mnost of your issues.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&version=31
You can change the version and read the other chapters easily

 

[Fr33Lanc3r]

"Evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next." (Biology - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, W H Freeman). This has been proven.

Show me the conculsive scientific evidence, sourced from a reliable, respected scientific magazine/newsletter/Research paper.

 

[Kwayera]

Show me the conculsive scientific evidence, sourced from a reliable, respected scientific magazine/newsletter/Research paper.

This is all you need to read. You can't actually access the text of the textbook, but this provides links to the resources the text is based on.

http://wps.prenhall.com/esm_freeman_evol_4/

 

[Hajime]

This is all you need to read. You can't actually access the text of the textbook, but this provides links to the resources the text is based on.

http://wps.prenhall.com/esm_freeman_evol_4/

I can't be bothered reading that... can you give me the jist?

 

[mophead]

You follow that? homosexuality is evil? circumscion is needed to get into heaven? Thats evil and close minded!
you know rabbis used to suck the babys penis to stop the blood flow? I'm not saying they were pedos or even gay, but the mere fact that they have to do something like that indicates how stupid it was to do all those years ago. and they did it anyway cos this god told them to. Stupid, close minded dangerous. EVIL

And Paul, the man who dictated most of the laws of Christianity never even met Jesus...in the flesh and never even saw him.

So ok you can follow Pauls letter to the Romans, but if there is a God and hes all hes cracked up to be, he'll burn you, and if there isnt a god and hes nothing whats hes cracked up, well, youve wasted your life at best. You couldve done much worse, and ruined not only yours but others as well

 

[Kwayera]

I can't be bothered reading that... can you give me the jist?

EVOLUTION IS PROVEN AND THIS IS WHY *LISTS A BILLION PROVEN AND LEGITIMATE REASONS AND SOURCES*


That's essentially it.

 

[Hajime]

EVOLUTION IS PROVEN AND THIS IS WHY *LISTS A BILLION PROVEN AND LEGITIMATE REASONS AND SOURCES*


That's essentially it.

Lol! I figured out the number that overrides god!

 

[Hajime]

The two aren't incompatible you brainwashed pea-brained nonce.

AHA! but did I say they weren't, you foolish mortal?

 

[veloc1ty]

There is a distinct difference between atheists and agnostics.

Maybe you didn't read what I said. Scratch that. You definitely didn't read what I said.

Here are some links

http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml
http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/evoluwrong.html
http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp
http://www.frankcaw.com/science.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080323165448AA8yZal

there are many more links (just google it) with evidence on both sides. But it cannot be ignored that there is no fundamental scientific proof the evolution is the way that life on this planet originated.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Those sites all profess tired, flawed arguments. The Boeing 747 metaphor alone could be refuted with an essay's worth of criticism.

[/FONT]

Show me the conculsive scientific evidence, sourced from a reliable, respected scientific magazine/newsletter/Research paper.

As I asked you to look at on the previous page: 29+ evidences for macroevolution all heavily sourced for your reading pleasure.

 

[mophead]

Occams Razor disproves god
An omnipotent being is simple in theory but infinitly complex in practice. Evolution is finitly complex
therefore Evolution more likely

And if he does exists then why do we see upside down?? that makes no sense! he desinged us so the we see upside down and then have to interpret it as right side up? oh yeah, thats an all knowing and all good being

 

[Hajime]

AHA! but did I say they weren't, you foolish mortal?

I'm sorry, that was rude... I don't mean to mock your pathetic race... I was just angry at the comment "brainwashed, pea-brained ponce...". I'm far above brainwashing. And I'm definately not pea-brained...

 

[Hajime]

Holy fuck there are retards on both sides of this argument not representing science and evolution correctly.

What is the go.

Evolution isn't more likely because it's 'finitely complex' evolution is an examined and extrapolated method of natural development.

*facepalm*

Now isn't that a little harsh? They are trying to discuss this... Failing on an agreement... But trying nonetheless!