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Does God exist? (6 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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Karlmarx

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• Rebuttal: Design Arguments

Claim:
Complexity indicates intelligent design.

Response:
1. This is an argument from incredulity. Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.


2. In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

3. Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

4. Complexity is poorly defined.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claim:
Intelligent design has explanatory power. It accounts for a wide range of biological facts. This makes it scientific.

Response:
1. Merely accounting for facts does not make a theory scientific. Saying "it's magic" can account for any fact anywhere but is as far from science as you can get. A theory has explanatory power if facts can be deduced from it. No facts have ever been deduced from ID theory. The theory is equivalent to saying, "it's magic."

2. "Intelligent" and "design" remain effectively undefined. A theory cannot have explanatory power if it is uncertain what the theory says in the first place.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claim:

Life looks intelligently designed because of its complexity and arrangement. As a watch implies a watchmaker, so life requires a designer.



Response:

1. Nobody argues that life is complicated. However, complexity is not the same as design. There are simple things that are designed and complex things that originate naturally. Complexity does not imply design; in fact, simplicity is a design goal in most designs.

2. In most cases, the inference of design is made because people cannot envision an alternative. This is simply an argument from incredulity. Historically, supernatural design has been attributed to lots of things that we now know form naturally, such as lightning, rainbows, and seasons.

3. Life as a whole looks very undesigned by human standards, for several reasons:
In known design, innovations that occur in one product quickly get incorporated into other, often very different, products. In eukaryotic life, innovations generally stay confined in one lineage. When the same sort of innovation occurs in different lineages (such as webs of spiders, caterpillars, and web spinners), the details of their implementation differ in the different lineages. When one traces lineages, one sees a great difference between life and design. (Eldredge has done this, comparing trilobites and cornets; Walker 2003.)
In design, form typically follows function. Yet life shows many examples of different forms with the same function (e.g., different structures making up the wings of birds, bats, insects, and pterodactyls; different organs for making webs in spiders, caterpillars, and web spinners; and at least eleven different types of insect ears), the same basic form with different functions (e.g., the same pattern of bones in a human hand, whale flipper, dog paw, and bat wing) and some structures and even entire organisms without apparent function (e.g., some vestigial organs, creatures living isolated in inaccessible caves and deep underground).
As mentioned above, life is complex. Design aims for simplicity.
For almost all designed objects, the manufacture of the object is separate from any function of the object itself. All living objects reproduce themselves.
Life lacks plan. There are no specifications of living structures and processes. Genes do not fully describe the phenotype of an organism. Sometimes in the absence of genes, structure results anyway. Organisms, unlike designed systems, are self-constructing in an environmental context.
Life is wasteful. Most organisms do not reproduce, and most fertilized zygotes die before growing much. A designed process would be expected to minimize this waste.
Life includes many examples of systems that are jury-rigged out of parts that were used for another purpose. These are what we would expect from evolution, not from an intelligent designer. For example vertebrate eyes have a blind spot because the retinal nerves are in front of the photoreceptors. Orchids that provide a platform for pollinating insects to land on, the stem of the flower has a half twist to move the platform to the lower side of the flower.
Life is highly variable. In almost every species, there is a spread of values for anything you care to measure. The "information" that specifies life is of very low tolerance in engineering terms. There are few standards.
4. Life is nasty. If life is designed, then death, disease, and decay also must be designed since they are integral parts of life. This is a standard problem of apologetics. Of course, many designed things are also nasty (think of certain weapons), but if the designer is supposed to have moral standards, then it is added support against the design hypothesis.

5. The process of evolution can be considered a design process, and the complexity and arrangement we see in life are much closer to what we would expect from evolution than from known examples of intelligent design. Indeed, engineers now use essentially the same processes as evolution to find solutions to problems that would be intractably complex otherwise.

6. Does evolution itself look designed? When you consider that some sort of adaptive mechanism would be necessary on the changing earth if life were to survive, then if life were designed, evolution or something like it would have to be designed into it.

7. Claiming to be able to recognize design in life implies that nonlife is different, that is, not designed. To claim that life is recognisably designed is to claim that an intelligent designer did not create the rest of the universe.

8. As it stands, the design claim makes no predictions, so it is unscientific and useless. It has generated no research at all.



Sorry, but your design argument is just as plausible as saying the universe is only a few thousand years old..
 

Karlmarx

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how can something come from nothing
Well, your logic, reveals an inherent flaw in your God.

So, your God doesnt need a creator because it is supposedly outside of time.

Well, because the universe exists, and we still, have no proof of God's existence, it is safe to readily assume, that if God does not require a creator, either does the universe.

Your logic is flawed, by your own statement

'how can something come from nothing'

Good question, ask your God that next time you see him.



‘The first cause argument tells us that the second of these is not possible, that the past cannot stretch back into infinity but rather must have a beginning. The argument then proceeds by suggesting that if the universe has a beginning then there must be something outside it that brought it into existence.’

How can God then, stretch back into infinity? What brought God into existence? If the universe is all we know, because obtaining physical evidence for God is somewhat impossible, it is understandable to refute this argument on this claim. The first cause argument is fundamentally contradictory. It claims that the universe needed a creator, but by the same logic, so does God. And because we have no proof of God, only the universe, it is ignorant to say that God does not need a creator, on the basis of this exact argument. ‘Saying "God did it" is not an explanation, because it is not tied to any objective evidence. It does not rule out any possibility or even any impossibility.’
 

Scorch

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yes i am going to head of for some sleep after this comment hehehe


watchmaker theory

how can something come from nothing

just because something has yet to be revealed/ proven to be true (god?) does not mean it does not exist

science has a theory of evolution, but has not yet proven the origin of the world, as it is still a theory.

So at the moment - the origin of the world is still theory based, and there is no way to prove god put it there (and yes i may perhaps be wrong, but nobody knows everything)

have a good life everyone.
i.e. you don't have even a rudimentary understanding of the science so you assume others don't either.
 

Graney

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For all you scientists out there and for all the students who have had a hard time convincing these people regarding the truth of the Bible here’s something that illustrates God’s awesome creation and shows He is still in control.

Did you know that NASA’s space programmers are busy proving that was has been called ‘myth’ in the Bible is true? Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, and a consultant in the space programmes, relates the following incident:

One of the most amazing things that God has for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at Green Belt, Maryland. They were checking out the positions of the sun, moon and planets out in space where they would be 100, and 1000 years from now. We have to know this as we do not want a satellite to collide with any of these in its orbits. We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite and where the planets will be so the whole project will not bog down. Computer measurements and data were run back and forth over the centuries when suddenly it came to a halt, displaying a red signal, which meant that either there was something wrong with the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards. They called in the service department to check it out, and the technicians asked what was wrong.

The scientists had discovered that somewhere in space in elapsed time a day was missing. Nobody seemed able to come up with a solution to the problem. Finally one of the team, a Christian, said: “You know, when I was still in Sunday School, they spoke about the sun standing still…….”

While his colleagues didn’t believe him, they did not have an answer either, so they said: “Show us.” He got a Bible and opened it at the book of Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous statement for any one with ‘common sense’. There they read about the Lord saying to Joshua: “Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand; there shall not be a man of them stands before thee.” (Joshua 10:8).

Joshua was concerned because the enemy had surrounded him, and if darkness fell, they would overpower him. So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still! That’s right “And the sun stood still and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Ja’ sher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hastened not to go down about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:13).

The astronauts and scientists said: “There is the missing day!” They checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it, but it was not close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in Joshua’s day was 23 hours and 20 minutes not a whole day. They read the Bible again and there it was: “about (approximately) a day.” These little words in the Bible were important, but they were still in trouble, because another 40 minutes were still unaccounted for, and this could mean trouble 1000 years from now. Forty minutes had to be found because it can be multiplied many times over in orbits.

As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the Bible which said the sun went backwards. The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but once again they opened the Book and read these words in 2 Kings.

Hezekiah, on his deathbed, was visited by the prophet, Isaiah, who told him he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for some sign as proof. Isaiah said: “Shall the sun go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?” And Hezekiah answered: “It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; nay, but let the shadow return backwards ten degrees.” And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the Lord, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.” (2 Kings 20:9 *11).

Ten degrees is exactly 40 minutes! Twenty-three hours and twenty minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in 2 Kings accounted for the missing day in the universe!

Isn’t this amazing? Our God is rubbing their noses in His Truth!
 

SnowFox

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For all you scientists out there and for all the students who have had a hard time convincing these people regarding the truth of the Bible here’s something that illustrates God’s awesome creation and shows He is still in control.

Did you know that NASA’s space programmers are busy proving that was has been called ‘myth’ in the Bible is true? Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, and a consultant in the space programmes, relates the following incident:

One of the most amazing things that God has for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at Green Belt, Maryland. They were checking out the positions of the sun, moon and planets out in space where they would be 100, and 1000 years from now. We have to know this as we do not want a satellite to collide with any of these in its orbits. We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite and where the planets will be so the whole project will not bog down. Computer measurements and data were run back and forth over the centuries when suddenly it came to a halt, displaying a red signal, which meant that either there was something wrong with the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards. They called in the service department to check it out, and the technicians asked what was wrong.

The scientists had discovered that somewhere in space in elapsed time a day was missing. Nobody seemed able to come up with a solution to the problem. Finally one of the team, a Christian, said: “You know, when I was still in Sunday School, they spoke about the sun standing still…….”

While his colleagues didn’t believe him, they did not have an answer either, so they said: “Show us.” He got a Bible and opened it at the book of Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous statement for any one with ‘common sense’. There they read about the Lord saying to Joshua: “Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand; there shall not be a man of them stands before thee.” (Joshua 10:8).

Joshua was concerned because the enemy had surrounded him, and if darkness fell, they would overpower him. So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still! That’s right “And the sun stood still and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Ja’ sher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hastened not to go down about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:13).

The astronauts and scientists said: “There is the missing day!” They checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it, but it was not close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in Joshua’s day was 23 hours and 20 minutes not a whole day. They read the Bible again and there it was: “about (approximately) a day.” These little words in the Bible were important, but they were still in trouble, because another 40 minutes were still unaccounted for, and this could mean trouble 1000 years from now. Forty minutes had to be found because it can be multiplied many times over in orbits.

As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the Bible which said the sun went backwards. The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but once again they opened the Book and read these words in 2 Kings.

Hezekiah, on his deathbed, was visited by the prophet, Isaiah, who told him he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for some sign as proof. Isaiah said: “Shall the sun go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?” And Hezekiah answered: “It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; nay, but let the shadow return backwards ten degrees.” And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the Lord, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.” (2 Kings 20:9 *11).

Ten degrees is exactly 40 minutes! Twenty-three hours and twenty minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in 2 Kings accounted for the missing day in the universe!

Isn’t this amazing? Our God is rubbing their noses in His Truth!

I could say the Great Pyramid is actually a device to stop the Tartarus Effect.
 

Scorch

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For all you scientists out there and for all the students who have had a hard time convincing these people regarding the truth of the Bible here’s something that illustrates God’s awesome creation and shows He is still in control.

Did you know that NASA’s space programmers are busy proving that was has been called ‘myth’ in the Bible is true? Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, and a consultant in the space programmes, relates the following incident:

One of the most amazing things that God has for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at Green Belt, Maryland. They were checking out the positions of the sun, moon and planets out in space where they would be 100, and 1000 years from now. We have to know this as we do not want a satellite to collide with any of these in its orbits. We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite and where the planets will be so the whole project will not bog down. Computer measurements and data were run back and forth over the centuries when suddenly it came to a halt, displaying a red signal, which meant that either there was something wrong with the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards. They called in the service department to check it out, and the technicians asked what was wrong.

The scientists had discovered that somewhere in space in elapsed time a day was missing. Nobody seemed able to come up with a solution to the problem. Finally one of the team, a Christian, said: “You know, when I was still in Sunday School, they spoke about the sun standing still…….”

While his colleagues didn’t believe him, they did not have an answer either, so they said: “Show us.” He got a Bible and opened it at the book of Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous statement for any one with ‘common sense’. There they read about the Lord saying to Joshua: “Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand; there shall not be a man of them stands before thee.” (Joshua 10:8).

Joshua was concerned because the enemy had surrounded him, and if darkness fell, they would overpower him. So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still! That’s right “And the sun stood still and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Ja’ sher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hastened not to go down about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:13).

The astronauts and scientists said: “There is the missing day!” They checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it, but it was not close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in Joshua’s day was 23 hours and 20 minutes not a whole day. They read the Bible again and there it was: “about (approximately) a day.” These little words in the Bible were important, but they were still in trouble, because another 40 minutes were still unaccounted for, and this could mean trouble 1000 years from now. Forty minutes had to be found because it can be multiplied many times over in orbits.

As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the Bible which said the sun went backwards. The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but once again they opened the Book and read these words in 2 Kings.

Hezekiah, on his deathbed, was visited by the prophet, Isaiah, who told him he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for some sign as proof. Isaiah said: “Shall the sun go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?” And Hezekiah answered: “It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; nay, but let the shadow return backwards ten degrees.” And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the Lord, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.” (2 Kings 20:9 *11).

Ten degrees is exactly 40 minutes! Twenty-three hours and twenty minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in 2 Kings accounted for the missing day in the universe!

Isn’t this amazing? Our God is rubbing their noses in His Truth!
Utterly and entirely made up.
 

Heggarty

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Hey I posted something on here ages ago. Talking about god. Completely forgot about this site stumbled upon it when looking on belonging notes.

I just want to respond to the line of arguement that I read somewhere on this page saying that for a christian to say something came from nothing they must also provide an answer to where god comes from.

God needs no creator, he is eternal. Everything with a beginning must have a cause. As god has no beggining he does not require a creator. If the Universe was eternal, then it would not have a cause and thus would not require an explanation, as the universe has a beginning it requires a cause. That cause must be god.
 

SeCKSiiMiNh

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Hey I posted something on here ages ago. Talking about god. Completely forgot about this site stumbled upon it when looking on belonging notes.

I just want to respond to the line of arguement that I read somewhere on this page saying that for a christian to say something came from nothing they must also provide an answer to where god comes from.

God needs no creator, he is eternal. Everything with a beginning must have a cause. As god has no beggining he does not require a creator. If the Universe was eternal, then it would not have a cause and thus would not require an explanation, as the universe has a beginning it requires a cause. That cause must be god.
lol fuck...
 

Heggarty

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I disagree, I believe something can exist without a beginning. I believe something can be eternal. Time for instance.
 

Scorch

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Hey I posted something on here ages ago. Talking about god. Completely forgot about this site stumbled upon it when looking on belonging notes.

I just want to respond to the line of arguement that I read somewhere on this page saying that for a christian to say something came from nothing they must also provide an answer to where god comes from.

God needs no creator, he is eternal. Everything with a beginning must have a cause. As god has no beggining he does not require a creator. If the Universe was eternal, then it would not have a cause and thus would not require an explanation, as the universe has a beginning it requires a cause. That cause must be god.
Cool story. Scientific proof? There is none. Hooray! All you are left with is but a fable.
 

Heggarty

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What your saying is you need imperical evidence to prove anything?? Scientific proof how about if the big bang occured .4 of a second faster we wouldnt be here.Or the chance of the human enzyme coming about by random chance is 1 in 10 to the power of 40,000 says the applied professer of mathematics at cardiff.

Your not going to get 100 percent scientific proof for anything all you can do is look at evidence.
 

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