Does God exist? (16 Viewers)

[Sy123]

since 99% of intellectuals were non-muslim wouldn't they be going to hell anyway?

A much much lower percentage than 99 probably
Oh and see below

I don't see hell in my post

Anyway it seems that people are literally trying to throw as many of the arguments as they can because all the other petty ones are being refuted easily

God does not judge your beliefs if you haven't heard of the scripture in a pure form, God doesn't judge you if you are ignorant on the truth. If the truth is presented to you and you reject it with full knowledge of it then you are in essence choosing hell. Also to declare certain individuals to go to Hell is not ok in Islam since only Allah knows the true beliefs on the death of an individual. No one can say that "X is going to Hell" since we do not know the situation of X nor do we know his/her beliefs and so on.
Only Allah knows since He is All-Knowing and since He is All-Just, He will deliver whatever is applicable.

 

[nerdasdasd]

since 99% of intellectuals were non-muslim wouldn't they be going to hell anyway?

What is hell?

 

[williamdaft]

My head hurts reading this thread
I'm excited to go to *hell*, most intellectually renowned people await my presence

Same

I would like someone to prove to me that God is just.

 

[Sy123]

Same

I would like someone to prove to me that God is just.

Atheism has no precedence for objective morality

So you've basically lost outright on that topic

 

[kaz1]

I don't see hell in my post

Anyway it seems that people are literally trying to throw as many of the arguments as they can because all the other petty ones are being refuted easily

God does not judge your beliefs if you haven't heard of the scripture in a pure form, God doesn't judge you if you are ignorant on the truth. If the truth is presented to you and you reject it with full knowledge of it then you are in essence choosing hell. Also to declare certain individuals to go to Hell is not ok in Islam since only Allah knows the true beliefs on the death of an individual. No one can say that "X is going to Hell" since we do not know the situation of X nor do we know his/her beliefs and so on.
Only Allah knows since He is All-Knowing and since He is All-Just, He will deliver whatever is applicable.

You didn't mention hell but you certainly implied hell.

Let's pretend that I believe that hell does exist (it doesn't exist). Why would an all powerful being give a fuck what some tiny living organisms on a random speck of dust in vast universe care about him. It sounds fucking stupid.

Also thanks for subtley pointing out that I am most likely going to hell. It really means a lot <3

Atheism has no precedence for objective morality

So you've basically lost outright on that topic

Morality isn't fucking objective.

You probably think homosexuality is immoral (assuming you're a devout muslim) and that they should be fucking stoned to death (very barbaric). I am perfectly okay with homosexuality and think that it is a moral practice.

 

[Graney]

Hahahahha

Probably one of the worst arguments against an argument for design, you have literally not touched any of the points made by an argument by design (such as Fine-tuning of initial conditions among the great complexities), and instead tried to argue that the universe is not designed because it looks as though we are insignificant in size.

Yet as far as we know we are the only rational intelligent animals in the universe.

What are the points made by an argument for design?

And why must an argument for design specifically lead to islam?

 

[Sy123]

You didn't mention hell but you certainly implied hell.

Let's pretend that I believe that hell does exist (it doesn't exist). Why would an all powerful being give a fuck what some tiny living organisms on a random speck of dust in vast universe care about him. It sounds fucking stupid.

Also thanks for subtley pointing out that I am most likely going to hell. It really means a lot <3

I don't think I implied hell, I simply compared the two religions, I think you're putting words into my mouth (as you are in the last comment, I never implied you are going to Hell, I simply quoted the orthodox opinion)

Well since God created you, He has given you a chance to experience His Pleasure and to submit to Him as He is Worthy to be submitted to. If you reject this then you are moving out of God's grace intentionally, you land yourself in Hell despite all the chances God has given you. (Not you, but anybody)

Morality isn't fucking objective.

You probably think homosexuality is immoral (assuming you're a devout muslim) and that they should be fucking stoned to death (very barbaric). I am perfectly okay with homosexuality and think that it is a moral practice.

Well there you go in a society of rapists, rape is ok.

The act of homosexuality itself is definitely immoral, and the punishment is lashings (same as heterosexual fornication), but not as severe as adultery.

Not that Islam condones a sort of absolutely moral system that works for all centuries. There are various tenants in Islam that cannot be changed no matter what society you go to, fundamental things like, prayer is compulsory, adultery is forbidden, murder is forbidden etc etc

However in more specific issues, Islamic fiqh allows for there to variation between time and place as dependent on the 'Urf or 'culture' of the society.

 

[Crobat]

Always been curious (and I don't mean this to be any sort of attack on religions), but how come pretty much all religions (the major ones and the smaller belief systems of tribal groups etc) have similar stories and accounts of events?

 

[Sy123]

What are the points made by an argument for design?

And why must an argument for design specifically lead to islam?

The various natural phenomena observed in our world and vast odds that must be overcome is best explained by an Intelligent designer, to avoid an infinite regress of designers there must be a designer that is the Most Intelligent, not only that, but All-Intelligent. I may have missed something but that is the brief version of it. I take it as a probabilistic argument that a designer must have designed it. Again, some atheists take the alternative that we are in a "simulation". But this has no scientific basis and is simply a form of deism than anything

I didn't say that argument for design specifically led to Islam, I say that after showing that God does exist, after various common sense deductions, it comes out that Islam meets the criteria and thus beyond reasonable doubt we say that Islam is the best religion

 

[Sy123]

Always been curious (and I don't mean this to be any sort of attack on religions), but how come pretty much all religions (the major ones and the smaller belief systems of tribal groups etc) have similar stories and accounts of events?

In Islamic belief, it is said that there were around 100 000 prophets sent through the history of the world (only 25 mentioned by name). So it could very well be that part of these people's messages were to teach them these stories to show what is right or wrong and to set an example.

The prophets in the Bible and the Torah are also the same as the Quran (though their names are a little different due to different language, i.e. Aaron/Harun, Abraham/Ibrahim)

I'm sure there is a naturalistic explanation for it though that people will conjure up

 

[Spiritual Being]

Always been curious (and I don't mean this to be any sort of attack on religions), but how come pretty much all religions (the major ones and the smaller belief systems of tribal groups etc) have similar stories and accounts of events?

It's analogous to someone downloading an essay and altering it to the point where they can't get caught plagiarizing.

No but seriously, this thread always gives me a good laugh. God exists. As soon as I provide my reasoning:

>fundamentalist

Nvm about an actual refute

 

[Spiritual Being]

In Islamic belief, it is said that there were around 100 000 prophets sent through the history of the world (only 25 mentioned by name). So it could very well be that part of these people's messages were to teach them these stories to show what is right or wrong and to set an example.

The prophets in the Bible and the Torah are also the same as the Quran (though their names are a little different due to different language, i.e. Aaron/Harun, Abraham/Ibrahim)

I'm sure there is a naturalistic explanation for it though that people will conjure up

isn't that just the arabic version anyway

im christian right, and if some kid is called aaron, they just say it in the arabic version lol

inb4 actually muslim

 

[Spiritual Being]

Simplest explanation

an unobserved, omnipotent, omniscient, intelligent force that exists outside of all established and observed rules of reality, designed the universe 14 billion years ago, specifically designing this infinitely vast space so that 14 billion years into it's infinitely long existence, a species that will flit out of existence in an infinestimally small portion of the universes existence (likely a few hundred thousand years) would consume, fuck, and kill each other on the surface of this tiny dot depicted here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Pale_Blue_Dot.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Hubble_ultra_deep_field_high_rez_edit1.jpg

Simple and elegant

lol

 

[Sy123]

isn't that just the arabic version anyway

im christian right, and if some kid is called aaron, they just say it in the arabic version lol

inb4 actually muslim

Yea I guess so, just like how Copts will call God, Allah. (iirc)

 

[Spiritual Being]

Yea I guess so, just like how Copts will call God, Allah. (iirc)

yep

 

[seanieg89]

Well merely looking at a 'simple' cell (observable science), the apparent fact is that as kaz1 described it, can be likened to software and processing.
Even if you were to allow macro-evolution the fact of the matter is, the cell (not evolved) is still incredibly complex and supports the argument by design. This was not known long ago, Darwin thought the cell was incredibly simple but observable science tells us something different.

And we can also include advancements in physics, cosmology, biology and so on.

"Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding." (Surah Ali Imran 3:190)

Why should complexity imply design? I don't see how this follows at all.

What?

From a scientific perspective we must come from insurmountable odds to produce anything. To say this came through by chance defies Occam's razor.

I mean, why do you think that laughable theories such as "our universe is a simulation" (with no evidence) are starting to erupt?

Hahahahha

Probably one of the worst arguments against an argument for design, you have literally not touched any of the points made by an argument by design (such as Fine-tuning of initial conditions among the great complexities), and instead tried to argue that the universe is not designed because it looks as though we are insignificant in size.

Yet as far as we know we are the only rational intelligent animals in the universe.



Rather

Design in the universe implies a designer

Combine this with the concept of an uncreated Creator to prevent an infinite regress of past events, and so we must eventually conclude that this designer is some Omnipotent, Intelligent, Powerful designer.

It is not the job of the design argument (or cosmological) alone to describe a precise formula for an Abrahamic God. (Though at this point if you accept the arguments you are at least a theist)

We muster the concept that God since he designed the universe and us inside, He'd send us a message of some sort. Then we analyse the scriptures to try and find an uncorrupted version that supports God most logically, and common-sensically

We find scriptures themselves (other than Islam) predict Prophet Muhammad
We find scriptures of most religions have been distorted
We reject the concept of God coming down in the form of a man due to the logical impossibility and contradiction

We find that the religion that adheres to the above is Islam.

And so I don't say that you can rigorously prove that Islam is the truth purely through axiomatic reasoning

But rather that the probability that God exists and Islam is true is too great to reject

--

Essentially this is what it comes down to, do you have faith in the god of atheism named chance (nor do we use the concept of insurmountable odds in our daily lives), or do you believe in Allah (SWTA).

I also really don't find arguments based on improbability convincing mostly because http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Improbable_things_happen. Sure it is improbable that the sequence of scientific accidents required for us to be where we are now from the big bang (whatever it's cause). But the probability of any given day unfolding as it actually does is also miniscule because of the vast number of points at which events could deviate. If you used a RNG to choose a random integer between 1 and 1,000,000, and it spat out 372,143, would this be evidence that the RNG was not really "random"? After all, the probability of such a miraculous event occurring is a tiny 10^{-6}! There is some phrase for this probabilistic fallacy which I cannot recall, but the point is that probability is not the same thing as conditional probability.

In any case, probability seems like a poor way to compare alternative explanations of "how we got here" given the impossibility of quantifying probabilities of a god's existence.

Lets just ignore the 90% of intellectuals who were people of religion

But I guess the sum of your knowledge is constricted to who Einstien, Sagan and Dawkins were lmao

Where did this number come from? I did not think the number was this large, but I suppose it largely depends on how loosely you define "intellectuals".

Note: I have no idea what the actual number would be in a worldwide study, but the academics I have met here and overseas must be extremely different from the norm if 90% is correct.

 

[kaz1]

I don't think I implied hell, I simply compared the two religions, I think you're putting words into my mouth (as you are in the last comment, I never implied you are going to Hell, I simply quoted the orthodox opinion)

Well since God created you, He has given you a chance to experience His Pleasure and to submit to Him as He is Worthy to be submitted to. If you reject this then you are moving out of God's grace intentionally, you land yourself in Hell despite all the chances God has given you. (Not you, but anybody)



Well there you go in a society of rapists, rape is ok.

The act of homosexuality itself is definitely immoral, and the punishment is lashings (same as heterosexual fornication), but not as severe as adultery.

Not that Islam condones a sort of absolutely moral system that works for all centuries. There are various tenants in Islam that cannot be changed no matter what society you go to, fundamental things like, prayer is compulsory, adultery is forbidden, murder is forbidden etc etc

However in more specific issues, Islamic fiqh allows for there to variation between time and place as dependent on the 'Urf or 'culture' of the society.

that is some fucked up hate equating rape with homosexuality

 

[Spiritual Being]

Same

I would like someone to prove to me that God is just.

He is, since religiously, what he says is morally correct forever

though I do understand why you question it and why people can easily say that he's not just

same-sex marriage is a contemporary issue, where 100 years ago, if you asked to redefine marriage, your ass would probably be on fire

so let's say (and I know this isn't really verifiable but for demonstrative purposes anyway) in 50 years same-sex marriage is legal all around the world, and everybody supports it and treats it like the norm, everyone will read the bible and say WTF God is immoral because he said homosexuality is a sin - not everybody would say that now because a solid part of the populace is still against homosexuality and they believe it's immoral

by that point (50 years hypothetically), all of the older generation (i.e. not megalamoniac enough to redefine a 3000 year old definition radically) would have died and we are all left with the intellectually brilliant, divine incarnate, "we're right because we said so" "fuck the implications" teenagers now who support homosexuality without question, are by then in political roles and gg world

thats why christianity/islam are both decaying religions (losing their value, "I'm a christian in my own way" "but god said love everybody") in a contemporary sense because of flawed conceptions of logic

of course, some would argue that supporting homosexuality isn't a flawed conception of logic, but if you believe in God, you're believing that everything he says is morally correct forever... so by supporting homosexuality, you're really denying an important belief/opposition that your God stated

obviously this isn't a same-sex argument thread, but there are still a lot of atheists who oppose homosexuality on the foundation of biology and natural procreation

 

[Spiritual Being]

that is some fucked up hate equating rape with homosexuality

maybe you can question the validity of it but he obviously believes they're both immoral which thus allows him to equate them

 

[Spiritual Being]

Yeah dude that's my perspective of human life but it's obviously more complicated than that.

Religious people always say that we cannot come out of nothing and god must of created the big bang. Then you have to ask yourself who created god? Religious people then say that god has always existed which I find completely ridiculous. Why not skip that step and just say that the cosmos has always existed and that it didn't need to be created from some god.

that's a pretty flimsy argument

the idea of god is supposed to be that he's the principal creator (omnipotent, omniscient etc etc) and thus there doesn't need to be anything which caused him

just like many atheists believe that the universe was just there

God was just there too

you're just broadening the atheistic belief that everything was just there

if we all just confine ourselves within the earth and for a minute believe that god doesn't exist, we can say, for example, that dirt is just there

you didn't create dirt

I didn't create dirt

it's just there, a product of the earth