Does God exist? (7 Viewers)

[unicorns101]

okay guys, just a question:
Maybe its a bit off topic from the initial poll: Does God exist...
but: regarding the holy texts, can I ask (in the LEAST OFFENSIVE WAY possible) what makes the books (Quran, Bible, etc) holy when they are written from the perspective of a mortal? How can they be holy when the words have been formed in a mind that is far from a Spiritual being (whether the belief is immanent or transcendent)? Of course i am wrong because i haven't referenced my question from anywhere so please correct me and enlighten me

 

[Drsoccerball]

okay guys, just a question:
Maybe its a bit off topic from the initial poll: Does God exist...
but: regarding the holy texts, can I ask (in the LEAST OFFENSIVE WAY possible) what makes the books (Quran, Bible, etc) holy when they are written from the perspective of a mortal? How can they be holy when the words have been formed in a mind that is far from a Spiritual being (whether the belief is immanent or transcendent)? Of course i am wrong because i haven't referenced my question from anywhere so please correct me and enlighten me

The Quran is holy because we believe it is the eternal word of God. It isn't a creation more like god words. So as muslims we don't believe the quran to be created by man or "Inspired word of god" but believe its the actual word of God. Thats what makes the book "holy."

 

[unicorns101]

The Quran is holy because we believe it is the eternal word of God. It isn't a creation more like god words. So as muslims we don't believe the quran to be created by man or "Inspired word of god" but believe its the actual word of God. Thats what makes the book "holy."

ohhh i see...so what does that make the person who wrote it?

 

[Drsoccerball]

ohhh i see...so what does that make the person who wrote it?

Well prophets are a conveyer of the message the messages are revealed through them so i guess you can say that the people who it was revealed to and was intended to spread it are prophets. The prophet muhammad (PBUH) didnt actually write down the message since he was illiterate but memorised it all and asked the scholors to write it down. After they wrote it down he asked them to read it out making sure they wrote it correctly.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Yes you're quite right, one major difference is the status of Jesus. However there are some other differences, e.g. the characteristics of God/Allah (contrast Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" with Surah 2:277 "God loves not the impious and sinners")

There's one thing that I'd just like to raise to your attention: you said that in the Bible, Jesus never claimed to be God. Here's a few verses from the gospels that contradict this:

John 14:9 "Anyone who has seen me has seen the father"
John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am!" ('I AM' is the name God gives himself in Exodus 3:14)
Throughout the gospels Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man (for example, Mark 2:10, Matthew 17:22, Luke 22:48, etc), which references Daniel 7: 13-14
Luke 5:20 "Friend, your sins are forgiven" - this is equivalent to Jesus claiming to be God, because in the Jewish religious milieu that Jesus was in, only God could forgive sins (Isaiah 43:25)

As far as Jesus praying, he prays to his Father, which according to Jesus, he is equal with (in John 5:17, Jesus is breaking the Sabbath, and the Jewish leaders begin to persecute him. Jesus says "My Father is always at work to this very day, and I too am working". John 5:18 then explicitly says that Jesus makes "himself equal with God"). While Jesus does claim to be equal with the Father, there can still be communication and different roles for both Jesus and the Father. This really comes down to doctrine about the trinity.

I appreciate your hesitancy in raising Jesus to a divine level, after all he was a man! However, the Jesus of the Bible certainly does claim to be divine, hence, if I believe that he truly did rise from the dead (as Jesus himself predicted several times, e.g. Matthew 20:19), then that is a strong indicator to me that he was telling the truth about his divinity.

I guess what you say struck you about Islam is what also strikes me about Christianity: the textual integrity of the Bible, and also my experience of life.

The verse you quoted was probably picked up from a search engine because if you go to surah 2 verse 277 it writes:
"Surely those who believe and do good deeds and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate they shall have their reward from their lord, and they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve"
This is actually contradicting your claim ahaha...

If Jesus died for our sins what do you say about this verse in the bible:
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."◄ Ezekiel 18:20 ►

God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Numbers 23:19

Luke 18: 18-19
18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

John 14:28
My father is greater than I
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

‘Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

John 5:30
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

John 7:16
‘So Jesus answered them and said, ‘My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.’
Can you explain these to me :/ ?

 

[porcupinetree]

The verse you quoted was probably picked up from a search engine because if you go to surah 2 verse 277 it writes:
"Surely those who believe and do good deeds and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate they shall have their reward from their lord, and they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve"
This is actually contradicting your claim ahaha...

If Jesus died for our sins what do you say about this verse in the bible:
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."◄ Ezekiel 18:20 ►

God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Numbers 23:19

Luke 18: 18-19
18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

John 14:28
My father is greater than I
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

‘Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

John 5:30
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

John 7:16
‘So Jesus answered them and said, ‘My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.’
Can you explain these to me :/ ?

I hope you'll forgive my typo - it was actually Surah 276 rather than 277.
The Ezekiel verse comes from the period of the old covenant - Jesus had not even come to Earth. What I think the verse is getting at, is that God is just in his dealing of sin: he won't charge people incorrectly, and he will always punish sin. However, the way that this whole process occurred changed with Jesus.
For Numbers, I have two things to say: Firstly, this is before Jesus and is part of the old covenant scripture. Secondly, Jesus didn't sin (lie)
For the Luke verse, Jesus doesn't ever deny being God. Read the passage again. He simply urges the ruler to consider WHY. The most important word in Jesus' sentence is the 'why', rather than the 'me'.
For the John 14 verse, while Jesus is equally as divine as the father, and equally as important in the trinity, he has a subordinate role in the relationship between Father-Jesus.
For John 17:3, Jesus doesn't say that he isn't equally as divine as the Father, in fact, in verse 5, he actually says that he was with the Father "before the world began", elevating himself to divine status.
For Acts, I don't really see any apparent inconsistency?
For John 5, this again relates to the relationship between the Father and Jesus in the trinity.
For John 7, I have two things to say: Firstly, this again relates to the trinity, and secondly, later on in the passage, Jesus explains what he means: "Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory...". He both describes his relationship with the Father, and asserts his intentions on Earth.

I hope that clears things up a bit I reckon it's awesome that you're thinking critically about what the Bible says. However, from the way I see it, most/all of the passages you mention make more sense when they're considered in both their immediate context, and the context of the whole Bible.
I hope you've found our discussion interesting, I certainly have. But I don't really see heaps of purpose in continuing to just throw verses at one another - I think it's fairly evident the differences between the Islamic and Christian viewpoints, and perhaps not the most relevant discussion for this thread/forum haha

 

[Drsoccerball]

I hope you'll forgive my incorrect reference - however it is still true that the Qur'an states several times that God loves not the sinners.
The Ezekiel verse comes from the period of the old covenant - Jesus had not even come to Earth. What I think the verse is getting at, is that God is just in his dealing of sin: he won't charge people incorrectly, and he will always punish sin. However, the way that this whole process occurred changed with Jesus.
For Numbers, I have two things to say: Firstly, this is before Jesus and is part of the old covenant scripture. Secondly, Jesus didn't sin (lie)
For the Luke verse, Jesus doesn't ever deny being God. Read the passage again. He simply urges the ruler to consider WHY. The most important word in Jesus' sentence is the 'why', rather than the 'me'.
For the John 14 verse, while Jesus is equally as divine as the father, and equally as important in the trinity, he has a subordinate role in the relationship between Father-Jesus.
For John 17:3, Jesus doesn't say that he isn't equally as divine as the Father, in fact, in verse 5, he actually says that he was with the Father "before the world began", elevating himself to divine status.
For Acts, I don't really see any apparent inconsistency?
For John 5, this again relates to the relationship between the Father and Jesus in the trinity.
For John 7, I have two things to say: Firstly, this again relates to the trinity, and secondly, later on in the passage, Jesus explains what he means: "Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory...". He both describes his relationship with the Father, and asserts his intentions on Earth.

I hope that clears things up a bit I reckon it's awesome that you're thinking critically about what the Bible says. However, from the way I see it, most/all of the passages you mention make more sense when they're considered in both their immediate context, and the context of the whole Bible.
I hope you've found our discussion interesting, I certainly have. But I don't really see heaps of purpose in continuing to just throw verses at one another - I think it's fairly evident the differences between the Islamic and Christian viewpoints, and perhaps not the most relevant discussion for this thread/forum haha

You may have attempted to quote surah 2 vers 276
"Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

If we as humans didn't sin god would've created a creation which did. If we didn't sin we would be arrogant like the Satan thinking that we'r the best not sinning.
Allaah has enjoined repentance on all kinds of people in this ummah: those who are foremost in good deeds, those who follow a middle course, and those who wrong their own selves by doing haraam things (cf. Faatir 35:32).

The messenger (pbuh) once said: "Every son of Adam sins, and the best of those who sin are those who repent."
And the story of Satan differs from Islam and Christianity
Christianity (correct if im wrong) :
He was an angel and defied god by tricking adam to eat the forbidden fruit and then became a devil?

Islam:
In Islam angels have free will but its limited to good options. For example us as humans have a choice at a grocery story of eating unhealthy or healthy things in there. They only have the option to pick the good things. So therefore as an angel you cant defy God. However, there are two entity's with free will: Humankind and Jinnkind. Jin's have free will(Don't want to go into in that much ahah) but the Satan was a Jinn so he had free will. So when God ordered all the angels to prostrate before adam he was the only one who didnt so therefore he was banished from paradise.

And (remember) when We said to the angels: ‘Prostrate yourselves unto Adam.’ So they prostrated themselves except ‘Iblis’ (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the command of his Lord" (Quran, Al-Kahf: 50)

"I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay" (Quran, Al-Aaraf: 12)
See this arrogance..
Look how forgiving we see the God of islam:

(Iblees (Satan)) said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day they (the dead) will be resurrected."
Allah said: "Then, verily, you are of those reprieved,
"Till the Day of the time appointed" (Quran, al-Hijr: 36 – 38).

I'd really like to go into it but i don't have that much time because of hsc D: i hope we can have mad talks after !

And if you have any query's you can ask
EDIT: And theres this on the verse on the side (Who regards what God has made lawful as unlawful, or vice versa)

 

[sy37]

If god dies then he cant be a god since it goes against the nature of god (Everlasting). By making things hard in this world God eases our life in the next world. Eg: If i have back pains all the time that would reduce my punishment in the next life or increase my reward in the next life. And you see suffering from earthquakes, tsunamis etc... It's just a veil for death like a car accident or heart attack. Every person has his or her ordained time so if its suppose to be by destruction of earth or a liver infection etc... thats the veil.

mom why does my back hurt

"son u goin have nice afterlyfe m9"

_________

sorry but that's the dumbest shit I've ever read

 

[Drsoccerball]

mom why does my back hurt

"son u goin have nice afterlyfe m9"

_________

sorry but that's the dumbest shit I've ever read

How is that dumb :L ? It reduces your suffering in th next :L? whats so dumb about that

 

[sy37]

How is that dumb :L ? It reduces your suffering in th next :L? whats so dumb about that

It's a nice philosophy to live by I suppose, but it's just that...

 

[SammyT123]

The simple reason I MUST believe God exists is for hope.

E.g. I 'know' that God will abide by my side while I get myself together , and finally at the end of this year ask a girl out that I've liked for 10 years . I 'know' that God will give me enough time to do so, and ensure she doesn't go for someone else.

I know that I would actually die for her, and therefore God gives me hope that at the end of the year, I'll have her before someone else does.

At the end of last year I promised myself I'd do many things,( train hard at the gym, always be there for her, sacrifices etc.)
Now wether or not this holds true, at the end of the six months I'll be a better person.

All because I have the trust that God will understand my love for her and give me some time



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[sy37]

The simple reason I MUST believe God exists is for hope.

E.g. I 'know' that God will abide by my side while I get myself together , and finally at the end of this year ask a girl out that I've liked for 10 years . I 'know' that God will give me enough time to do so, and ensure she doesn't go for someone else.

I know that I would actually die for her, and therefore God gives me hope that at the end of the year, I'll have her before someone else does.

At the end of last year I promised myself I'd do many things,( train hard at the gym, always be there for her, sacrifices etc.)
Now wether or not this holds true, at the end of the six months I'll be a better person.

All because I have the trust that God will understand my love for her and give me some time



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That is exactly why religion thrives: human narcissism. What about the other guys going for her?

You've earned a weird sense of respect from me in that you openly admit to believing in god simply because of self-benefits rather than idealisations of divinity. Lol'

 

[Drsoccerball]

That, my friend, is exactly why religion thrives. Intrinsic human narcissism. Yes, god will always be there for you. Just you. And the other guys going for her? Nah fuck them. It's all about your little cushioned world. wub wub

You've earned a weird sense of respect from me in that you openly admit to believing in god simply because of self-benefits rather than divinity. Lol'

I think its wrong to think that way... Ahaha i believe in god because theres no way he can't exist. And about my philospphy up there ^ its not like we say "god please punish me in this world so i get less in the next" we ask god for protection from punishments in both world but if we do get tests or hardships we have something to be grateful for.

 

[unicorns101]

is it possible to completely pay for your sins here and now, so you don't have to live sinfully in the next or you don't have to go to a next one at all?

 

[Drsoccerball]

is it possible to completely pay for your sins here and now, so you don't have to live sinfully in the next or you don't have to go to a next one at all?

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]

"Then as for him whose measure of good deeds is heavy, He shall live a pleasant life. And as for him whose measure of good deeds is light, His abode shall be the abyss. And what will make you know what it is? A burning fire. " surah Qariah verse 6-11 The effect is so much greater in Arabic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EhXoPR5nCM if you want to listen to a recitation its pretty short

From an Islamic point of view, there's no such thing as original sin like there is in Christianity. We don't believe that we should be cursed for eternity for Adam (pbuh) eating the forbidden fruit. Why you ask ? Because he didn't ask me when he ate it so why should I get punished? So therefore everyone is born sinless and sins only come about at the age of puberty when one has an idea of what theyre actually doing. So if you die as a child you would go to paradise (IF you don't know what your doing is right or wrong etc...) And since God is Al gafoor(the most forgiving) if you sincere ask for forgiveness he will forgive you for sins that you've commited. Therefore one does not have to suffer in either of the two worlds
Nearly everyone would be questioned for every single thing that they've done and the quran says in surah zalzala: So, he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it. And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it."
Heres the surah :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mse6JAMbP3U listen to the melody as well

 

[SammyT123]

That, my friend, is exactly why religion thrives. Intrinsic human narcissism. Yes, god will always be there for you. Just you. And the other guys going for her? Nah fuck them. It's all about your little cushioned world. wub wub

You've earned a weird sense of respect from me in that you openly admit to believing in god simply because of self-benefits rather than divinity. Lol'

This is so wrong in so many ways
I think you do not understand. If someone else is with her, :

1) I am still a stronger and more mature person

2) I do not deserve her, or she is just not meant to be with me. Therefore I must seek even more betterment . I trust in God and I admit, I will be devastated, but with time I will know I can move on BECAUSE I trust in God.

I'm sorry , but if you cannot understand the direct benefit of my faith , I cannot dumb it down even more .

And guess what? I do believe in God due to divinity, for (literally) hundreds of reasons ,I just didn't want to start an argument because I still respect your views .

I can continue to list benefits, not only internal and mental benefits but simple materialistic benefits as I've mentioned for people like you,

But tell me, are there any downsides for my faith?


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[Drsoccerball]

This is so wrong in so many ways
I think you do not understand. If someone else is with her, :

1) I am still a stronger and more mature person

2) I do not deserve her, or she is just not meant to be with me. Therefore I must seek even more betterment . I trust in God and I admit, I will be devastated, but with time I will know I can move on BECAUSE I trust in God.

I'm sorry , but if you cannot understand the direct benefit of my faith , I cannot dumb it down even more .

And guess what? I do believe in God due to divinity, for (literally) hundreds of reasons ,I just didn't want to start an argument because I still respect your views .

I can continue to list benefits, not only internal and mental benefits but simple materialistic benefits as I've mentioned for people like you,

But tell me, are there any downsides for my faith?


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Well if you don't get her you'll make claims such as "Therefore god doesnt exist" if you don't do it for the divinity purpose.

 

[SammyT123]

Well if you don't get her you'll make claims such as "Therefore god doesnt exist" if you don't do it for the divinity purpose.

Please read my post again slowly. I have strong faith , and in those few times where I have trusted God and given my maximum effort , my 100% towards something, and still failed;

I must have been doing something wrong. You cannot argue with this .Wether you believe God exists or not , this is most likely the case.
I will always have faith, because like the small example before, I believe God has given ME the power to change myself, and therefore I will never lose hope.

Plus, before I made 100000 excuses to not gym , but with my faith , I now can qualify in competitions for my weight division due to my squat .( I won't win by a long shot, but that's pretty good at my age of 16 IMO)


I'm glad I had that faith. I've I never tried , I would have never accomplished . In summary, God gives me the belief that If I try my best, everything is possible.


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[sy37]

Please read my post again slowly. I have strong faith , and in those few times where I have trusted God and given my maximum effort , my 100% towards something, and still failed;

I must have been doing something wrong. You cannot argue with this .Wether you believe God exists or not , this is most likely the case.
I will always have faith, because like the small example before, I believe God has given ME the power to change myself, and therefore I will never lose hope.

Plus, before I made 100000 excuses to not gym , but with my faith , I now can qualify in competitions for my weight division due to my squat .( I won't win by a long shot, but that's pretty good at my age of 16 IMO)


I'm glad I had that faith. I've I never tried , I would have never accomplished . In summary, God gives me the belief that If I try my best, everything is possible.


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You say this first:

"I 'know' that God will abide by my side while I get myself together , and finally at the end of this year ask a girl out that I've liked for 10 years . I 'know' that God will give me enough time to do so, and ensure she doesn't go for someone else. "

now this:


"I must have been doing something wrong"

hmm..

 

[SammyT123]

You say this first:

"I 'know' that God will abide by my side while I get myself together , and finally at the end of this year ask a girl out that I've liked for 10 years . I 'know' that God will give me enough time to do so, and ensure she doesn't go for someone else. "

now this:


"I must have been doing something wrong"

hmm..

I do not see what you are trying to say.

By having faith , I have improved myself
If things don't turn out the way I expected, I'm still a better person.

By 'knowing' something is possible, we persevere. If I believed it was totally impossible, why would I try?

By believing it is possible I give it everything, and hope that this will be enough

And if I STILL do not get what I wish for, at least I'm a stronger person (both physically and mentally)

If Steve jobs did not believe he could be successful, he would not be successful.
If he gave up, he would have never succeeded.

The only difference: He may have got that faith from somewhere/someone else . I get it from God .

"The man who believes he will win and the man who believes he will lose are both usually correct"

Maybe at the end of the year she says no. But there's no harm in trying my best . I (and ALL humans ) just need that little bit of belief it is possible.
I get it from faith in God, and you may get it from somewhere else, and I respect that

And let me tell you one thing, if an individual is giving everything they've got, no matter what they tell you, they believe it is possible. And by trying their best, they are giving themselves the BEST possible chance of succeeding.

In summary, by 'knowing' something is possible, we strive to achieve it. If we never try , we will never accomplish. If we never have faith , we will never succeed

And if we still fail, which is bound to happen at some time in our lives, at least we know we gave it our best shot




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