Does God Exist? (70 Viewers)

[Sophie777]

Thats freaky. People are actually making up religions as we speak.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I can make an argument against your religion if it impedes on my ability to live happily as a human being considering orders given to you that I am 'unclean' and should be murdered or coerced into believing.

Yes but he is one of the believers that claims part x is out of context, and the peaceful parts are true.
The people who choose to claim the peaceful parts are out of context, and part x is true.

Of course to him, the people with the latter belief.... are 'not real believers' like him and his fellow peaceful friends.

 

[Sophie777]

If only religion didn't exist.

 

[sub]

And who can? A great holyman? who somehow mysteriously knows the answers?
Are there not refuted claims by different sects in islam claiming different 'meanings' of these verses, i'm sure the martyrs like thinking that they're doing allahs duty and that when they die they will be given a special place in paradise....
What makes your meaning any more justified than theirs?

firstly i never gave a meaning, and i am certainly not one to even try to create a meaning of the Quran. i simply do not have enough knowledge to do so. there are several people with authority to do so, as they have studied the Quran in much more detail than i have, and from many different sources such as the sayings and actions of the Prophet. so it is not my place to put an opinion in.

 

[Sophie777]

firstly i never gave a meaning, and i am certainly not one to even try to create a meaning of the Quran. i simply do not have enough knowledge to do so. there are several people with authority to do so, as they have studied the Quran in much more detail than i have, and from many different sources such as the sayings and actions of the Prophet. so it is not my place to put an opinion in.

How do you follow something that you don't understand? If you don't know what the Quran means... how can you truly follow its ideals?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Firstly i never gave a meaning, and i am certainly not one to even try to create a meaning of the Quran. i simply do not have enough knowledge to do so. there are several people with authority to do so, as they have studied the Quran in much more detail than i have, and from many different sources such as the sayings and actions of the Prophet. so it is not my place to put an opinion in.

Why not?
Is it therefor not your place to have a political opinion other than one that the politicans have fed to you?
To claim that you need 100% knowledge in something to have an opinion is a pretty dull one,

Few Muslims have a detailed knowledge of Hinduism, Wicca, Sikhism, or the Australian Aborignal Dreamtime. Following their logic, they have no valid reason whatsoever to reject the other religions for the simple fact that they know little or nothing about them. Unless of course these criteria mysteriously apply only to Islam?

 

[Sophie777]

You know a lot about this stuff. Very interesting. I'm beginning to wonder whether you have been sent from somewhere to dismantle all religious beliefs with simple logic.

 

[joujou_84]

1. On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. (The Cow: 161 )

2. Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. ( The Cow: 15 )

3. The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful, who will not believe. (Spoils of War: 55)

4. Oh ye who believe! the non-Muslims are unclean. (Repentance:17)

5. Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

6. Oh believers, do not treat your fathers and mothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers. (Repentance: 20) 7. Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute. ( Repentance: 29 )

Jou Jou, isn't this an extract from the Words of the Qur'an?

yeh look when i first started to read the qoran i too questioned these verses until i had them explained to me. some of them have been taken out of context, some ambiguous. for example in the first two an unbeliever here refers to the person who is trying desperately to convert ppl to other religions. so if u are trying to tell me islam is wrong then u are an unbeliever and u are gods enemy, however if u are minding ur own buinsness then u still are an unbeliever (in islam) but not an enemy of god. and also ive read the qoran and i know the lines u are refering to, but they are only lines and not the whole verse and u have taken them out of the the whole verse they are from. LETS START

firstly with the quote

"Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123) "

u have quoted it wrong, it infact says "o you who believe fight those of the unbelievers who are near to u and let them find in u HARDNESS in u and know that allah is with those who guard (against evil)."

this line has been taken from a chapter which talks about ppl who muslims will face during their lifetime who will tell them islam is wrong and make fun of them and try to degrade them. in this line is written the response to these sorts of people, these ppl are not innocent ppl who mind their own buisness in life but ppl like hitler, bush and saddam husien who try to degrade ppl and their religion and kill the innocent. the hardness (not harshness) refers to the personality a muslim should have, we should have confidence in our belief and remain hard and strong, therefore not let our faith disappear when ppl continue to put us down.

secondly with the line

"Oh believers, do not treat your fathers and mothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers. (Repentance: 20)"

now this one is saying that if ur mothers and fathers try to prevent u from finding the true religion then they are ur enemies, u should ignore them and seek the truth urself, regardless of wat they say. umm however looking at the qoran and the number u have given me i cant find this quote maybe u wrote the number wrong infact at "Repentance 20" it says

"those who believed and fled their homes and strove hard in allahs way with their property and their souls are much higher in rank with allah and those are they who are the achievers".

this one means that those who gave money and property in the way of allah eg' to the poor or to charities is loved by god immensly, more than anyone else( so for u who say ppl with religion only pray for things to happen well this proves u wrong. in islam we dont only pray for things, there is a compulsory tax we pay each year which goes to the poor)

thirdly.

"Oh ye who believe! the non-Muslims are unclean. (Repentance:17)"

again this is not the right quote for the number u gave me however in islam anyone not from "the people of the book" eg anyone not christian, jew or muslim, is consdiered unclean, meaning impure (najis) therfore if u touch one, u must shower. it is a law, but its not saying we should kill them. the actually line for "repentance 17" is

"the idolaters have no right to visit the mosques of allah whilst bearing witness to unbelief against themselves these it is whose doings are null and in the fire they shall abide"

this is saying that "non people of the book" are on the wrong path in life and if the dont wake up to themselves theyll end up in hell

fourthly

"The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful, who will not believe." (Spoils of War: 55)

again uve misquoted it actually says "surely the vilest of animals in allahs site are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe"

this refers to those who god has guided to believe yet they refuse it, eg: he has shown them miracles and evidence of his existence yet they are stubborn and fail to believe. this line is taken out of a chapter speaking about the pharaoh ramsis and his father who announced to the world that he was god. so it is the paharoh who is the animal in this case

finally sophie 777 someone who puts forward good evidence to find answers and asks decen tquestions, evn though uve misquoted everything

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Maybe i should make my own atheist sect , make millions preaching about how all the religions are wrong and i am the one truth!
No... That would just be another religion...

Religions are kinda doomed... (except for the people that will believe because of faith, and faith alone )

Each time science makes a new discovery god loses his place....

God, who once shook the planet, created stars, filled oceans and populated continents and coral reefs with everything from starfish to starfruit, seems to be suffering from a case of erosion that would put the ice-worn mountains of the North to shame.

Cosmology, geology and biology are the sciences that cover pretty much everything there is. God was once held responsible for creating the stars in their crystal sphere, for moving the sun around the Earth, for opening and closing the windows in the sky to let the rain and snow in. For placing comets, planets and supernovae as signs, portents and landing-lights for Wise Men on camels. For the perfect order and majesty of the clean and neatly-arranged Heavens.

Sadly, God had to relinquish his control when the telescope was invented. To hide his tracks He was careful to dirty up the cosmos with great clouds of alcohol and laughing gas, dirt, bits of broken rock, and all sorts of other untidy, disordered muck. To look at it now, you'd hardly know a guiding intelligence had any hand in it at all, so good a job was done of making it appear natural. Right down to leftover radiation from the Big Bang.

A similarly woeful tale can be told of biology. With the theory of evolution, the gradual piecing together of the fossil record and the discovery of DNA, the Lord no longer was able to carefully direct each individual sperm to its divinely-chosen eggs, to maintain control of the flow of genes each and every time anything reproduced. There was nothing left for him to do, which probably came as a relief, what with the slimy, messy, icky nature of... well, nature.

Geology too. When nosey geologists started digging the ground up and peering too closely at what they found, God had no choice but to call it a day and fake a load of strata, fossils, ancient coastlines, coal deposits, drifted continents and all the other paraphernalia to make it look like the Earth was an extra few billion years old. Like a pile of sweets surrounded by four-year-olds, the Lord just kept getting smaller.

And that is where we find Him today. In the cracks and gaps in our scientific knowledge. Unlike God, scientists are not omniscient, and so there are still plenty of gaps for God to hide in, and be invoked as an ideal explanation at a moments notice. The inexorable progress of science, like a bulldozer on autopilot, is slowly filling in the gaps, making poor old Jehovah vacate them and find some even more obscure hiding place.

Science cannot explain THIS, they cry, That is sure proof of God's existence and cleverness. Look what we've found, they shout, the only possible explanation is our God..

Sometime, someday, most of the important gaps will be closed, and those remaining believers who rely on this form of argument will be heard saying "Ah, but what about the mating ritual of the Venezuelan Accordion Beetle, eh? You can't explain that with your stupid test tubes, can you? Bow down and praise the Lord in apology!” The remaining believers will have to fall back on good old ignorance ("Continental drift? What's that then?"), denial ("I wouldn't believe it even if you proved it to me!") or old-fashioned faith ("The world is really as I feel it ought to be, not as it is").

 

[joujou_84]

hey sophie777 unclean dosent mean dirty or stinky. it means like u havent been bathed in holy water. thats all but it dosent mean ur physically unclean, dont take it offensively

 

[Not-That-Bright]

How do you know she's misquoted?
That could of been how a muslim radical (in your view) has translated those words...
Again it comes back to context, you're simply wanting us to believe YOUR belief on these words, and telling us that other people are wrong... They'll tell us that you are also wrong, and give similiar 'proof'.

I could come up with my own theory... such as an evil spirit came and messed with the words of the qoran, to decieve people into thinking etc.

Surely the vilest of animals in allahs site are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe...
this refers to those who god has guided to believe yet they refuse it, eg: he has shown them miracles and evidence of his existence yet they are stubborn and fail to believe. this line is taken out of a chapter speaking about the pharaoh ramsis and his father who announced to the world that he was god.

You have to remeber that your god apparently transcends time... so him saying that people who have witnessed miracles and still not believed should die COULD be referring to all of mankind, as mankind (apparently) has witnissed miracles...
And what about a miracle of someone recovering from a sickness? if i witness that and don't believe does that mean i should die?

 

[joujou_84]

How do you know she's misquoted?
That could of been how a muslim radical (in your view) has translated those words...
Again it comes back to context, you're simply wanting us to believe YOUR belief on these words, and telling us that other people are wrong... They'll tell us that you are also wrong, and give similiar 'proof'.

I could come up with my own theory... such as an evil spirit came and messed with the words of the qoran, to decieve people into thinking etc.



You have to remeber that your god apparently transcends time... so him saying that people who have witnessed miracles and still not believed should die COULD be referring to all of mankind, as mankind (apparently) has witnissed miracles...
And what about a miracle of someone recovering from a sickness? if i witness that and don't believe does that mean i should die?

there is only one trasnlation for the qoran in bookstores all ova the world it is the translation by M .H shakkir. search the world and u wont find another translation. it is forbidden in islam, to have different interpretations of the qoran. and i know she as misquoted coz i looked up the verses she was referring to and ditn fidn them. the qoran is not like the bible, it dosent have different editions, it is one and has remained the same since it was revelaed to prophet mohammad, no letter has been changed since and neva will. and by the way i wasnt giving my opinion sophie777 presented me with lines from the qoran and she wnated answers, no where did i say that she must now believe wat i say.

 

[joujou_84]

You have to remeber that your god apparently transcends time... so him saying that people who have witnessed miracles and still not believed should die COULD be referring to all of mankind, as mankind (apparently) has witnissed miracles...
And what about a miracle of someone recovering from a sickness? if i witness that and don't believe does that mean i should die?[/QUOTE]

yes the verses of the qoran are not bound in time and are universal and i used miracles as an example. the chapter talks about the phaaroh and how he made himself a god, but it has an underlying message to everyone. dont be stubborn and accept god as ur creator. now u have to rememeber that the qoran is a way of life for muslims, its not a book that argues the existence of god coz one who reads the qoran is reading the religion of the muslim therefore u might not agree with it but it is the religion but u are then able to gain knowledge into the religion u are reading about.

 

[Dougie]

don't mind me butting in or anything, but i thought not-that-bright and i cleared this up earlier in the morning! also i'm to lazy to read ur RIDICULOUSLY long posts
so apart from joining the discussion again, could someone tell me where we're at if possible?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What i am refering to.. is when you translate something from arabic to english...

 

[joujou_84]

don't mind me butting in or anything, but i thought not-that-bright and i cleared this up earlier in the morning! also i'm to lazy to read ur RIDICULOUSLY long posts
so apart from joining the discussion again, could someone tell me where we're at if possible?

my long post was not for u. it was for sophie777 and as for the translation, it is word for word arabic into english

 

[Not-That-Bright]

there is no way to translate PERFECTLY between arabic and english...

Although please don't think i'm telling you 'you have no right to accept this religion without knowing the arabic un-translated version!'.

 

[sub]

Shut up. You are being annoying. Don't hang on my every word when yours lack any evidence. All i meant was, am i wrong? ANYWAY, in addition to this, my question was whether they were out of the Quran, hence how could I be incorrect if they are? It was merely a question.

firstly i do not think it is ur right to tell me to shut up, i have the right to voice my opinion in this discussion just as much as u. as for being annoying, of that i am sorry, but i do not see how i was. i read ur first post without the addition of that last line, and hence, i thought, as it was, a late addition. and hence, the meaning may not have followed on. as for whether they're in the quran or not has already been answered by joujou...

How do you follow something that you don't understand? If you don't know what the Quran means... how can you truly follow its ideals?

Why not?
Is it therefor not your place to have a political opinion other than one that the politicans have fed to you?
To claim that you need 100% knowledge in something to have an opinion is a pretty dull one

what i ment was I am not able to give u my opinion as it may be wrong. wrong interpretations lead to complications later in life. i take the opinion of someone who has much more extensive knowledge than i, because he/she knows more of the quran than i do. so i CAN give u my interpretations of these verses, but it would be wrong of me to do so, especially because u may take MY meaning to be the truth, when it may not be. also, it is against islam for me to make up my own meaning, as it is for others to do so. only those who are knowledgable, such as certain scholars eg Yusuf Ali etc, who make commentary on the Quran and Sunnah (the way of the Prophet) can do so. i take politics and religion apart from each other, especially in today's context. religion is something that i am not allowed to argue with...it is my understanding that i am allowed to question it to prove to myself that it is correct, but should i not be able to, that does not mean that islam is wrong...it only means that i have not the knowledge, or background knowledge that others do to prove it correct. it is also part of my belief that islam is without error, and hence it cannot be wrong. any errors in judgement are errors made by me trying to understand or explain something.

 

[danie]

this thread is going NOWHERE. everyone is set in their beliefs ntb you have this thing where you take everything out of context and can't seem to grasp the concept of faith. The question has been posed does god exist? Give me couple of reasons whether god/s a higher transcdent energy doesn't. Scientific, logical proof that proves he doesn't. Something solid, no logic like santa claus, none of your views on why you believe religion is baseless but evidence that says god/s doesn't exist. Let me reiterate that evidence that says god DOESN'T exist.

 

[sub]

joujou, go to user cp, then options and turn on private messaging...