Fourth year law student - ask me anything! (1 Viewer)

neo o

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The point is that I'm not saying that it's all sunshine and rainbows for Law students (especially for those who want any role in a law firm). However, Law students probably have it much better than many other students and since most students take it as a combined degree, there's always their other degree.

Yes, Law is absolutely terrible compared to before when it comes to employability. Not saying every law student has a bright future. Legal roles are harder to come by. But Law isn't that terrible if you view it amongst all the degrees out there. Combined Law students have various options, whether it be legal or non-legal.

Like I said before:


If Law is terrible, basically 80% of degrees are terrible.
I've worked as a solicitor. I've been in legal recruitment. I've been in the APS. Of the people I know from law school, the majority are either back studying or doing something else, even people who managed to get a start in the profession. Of the people who are still in the profession, heaps are jammed up on salaries that people with other degrees would expect to exceed in just a couple of years. I only know 3 people I went to law school with who have successful careers in law.

For the privilege of entering such a competitive profession, you sacrifice two years of potentially earning an income + pay increased HECs fees across the board.

For people who think the sacrifice is worth it for the quality of work - you're going to be disappointed - a lot of people end up doing fairly boring compliance work in quasi legal areas in the public service, or working at suburban and mid-tier law firms effectively just filling out forms and doing routine court work. The hours are awful, and quite often, so are the people you're working with.

I actually get angry when I see later year law students with no industry experience and no idea what they're talking about shilling for law. If you're a school leaver, consider a generalist degree that will give you more career options like a commerce/arts degree, and if you're still keen, you can do a JD down the road. An LLB opens up similar but fewer opportunities than a straight BA.
 
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wannaspoon

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I'm in the suburban firm situation (but it's far from mid tier hahaha)... It's close to home at least, which is a plus...

Can tell you now... You're better off getting a job at Woolworths and climbing the corporate ladder there until you are area manager... :lol:

I really don't want to disappoint the people currently studying Law, who knows, you might find success in law... Both, myself and neo o are only providing an accurate reflection of what the legal industry is actually like...
 

neo o

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I'm in the suburban firm situation (but it's far from mid tier hahaha)... It's close to home at least, which is a plus...

Can tell you now... You're better off getting a job at Woolworths and climbing the corporate ladder there until you are area manager... :lol:

I really don't want to disappoint the people currently studying Law, who knows, you might find success in law... Both, myself and neo o are only providing an accurate reflection of what the legal industry is actually like...
I'm an accountant now and I'm actually shocked, in spite of its similarities to law, how much better everything about the profession is.
 

Demi678

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Hi,

I'm a student in Year 11 and am currently looking at potential careers. Law really stood out to me because it involves helping people, analytical skills etc. The subjects I am considering studying in Year 12 are Advanced English, General Maths, Psychology and Biology. When looking at the ATAR for the Law degree I am looking at (95) I am quite worried that the subjects I am considering are going to scale really low. Do you think that If I achieve really high marks in these subjects that I have a high chance of getting into law ?
 
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hfis

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An LLB opens up similar but fewer opportunities than a straight BA.
I disagree with this statement, but agree with everything else you've said. Source: 2 years private practice, 6 years government.

Hi,

I'm a student in Year 11 and am currently looking at potential careers. Law really stood out to me because it involves helping people, analytical skills etc. The subjects I am considering studying in Year 12 are Advanced English, General Maths, Psychology and Biology. When looking at the ATAR for the Law degree I am looking at (95) I am quite worried that the subjects I am considering are going to scale really low. Do you think that If I achieve really high marks in these subjects that I have a high chance of getting into law ?
Law does not involve helping people - there are two sides to every case, so you will almost always be fucking someone else over. Do not worry about how your subjects will scale, just pick subjects which you will enjoy and will do OK at. The subjects you have listed are fine.
 

Spiritual Being

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There seems to be an overwhelming amount of "horror stories" on whirlpool (on law and life in general), where, and wait for the truly impossible situation, you'll have people who scored average marks in average (not go8) universities, wondering why in 2017 they can't find a job, in a field that is more competitive than ever (as is every white collar industry).

I'm sorry but if you only managed to get a pass or credit average in your combined law degree and you had minimal responsibilities during university (and even if), then you deserve the predicament of being unable to find a job. The difficulty of law is greatly exaggerated. You'll hear people tell you that you need to give up your life, your sport, your hobbies and everything that you thought was fun, because this discipline is all consuming. I was told from day 1 that it's incredibly cut throat. Then when I started they said, "just wait for the REAL law subjects" (presumably the ones of greater density). I got there and it was laughable. Sure it was harder, but it was nothing that isn't doable. Some areas of law are complex and you need to apply the law carefully, considering the exceptions, but it's still words. Put me in an engineering or complex maths class, and now you're talking. I'd seriously struggle. It's not hard to get at least a distinction if you're consistent. Most of the course structure at UTS at least is quite balanced, between class participation, assessments that you sometimes have over a month to complete, and a final exam. And you're not clueless for the exams either. There are revision lectures, your tutor goes through practice exams with you and so on and so forth. I hear it's strikingly similar in other institutions. I'd say there are some hell-ish subjects (in structure more than content) but it's nothing earth shattering.

Wannaspoon, correct me if I'm wrong but I recall a few years ago you saying something to the effect of "I stay up for two weeks during my law exams; no sleep but that's how I pass". I remember reading that as I was entering law and preparing myself for what was ahead of me. I don't think it's a coincidence that someone who needs to cram the entire course work in the last two weeks before the exam, to the complete sacrifice of sleep, is complaining about the lack of opportunities in law. It should be worded "the lack of opportunities FOR ME".

There are students who will be the whole package; good grades, great personality, a critical thinker, solid EC's and experience. There are also people who get constant distinctions and high distinctions and can't even talk to you pleasantly for a minute without facilitating unbelievable inner cringe because they're just so awkward. There are people with high marks and who have extreme social anxiety; which is undeniably a negative trait in law. You have people who get credit to distinction averages who are leagues ahead of the HD bookworm students, because they're pragmatic and they have experience. They know how to get things going, know how to talk to people and in general they have decent connections.

Trying to link someone's failure to one aspect when everything matters is looking at a tenth of a painting in an attempt to understand the entire painting. It's nonsensical in every sense of the word.

The worst thing you can do to yourself is sit there all day reading horror stories on whirlpool, where every story teller there attempts to magnify their quality and underplay where they went wrong. Of course you're struggling to get a job if you didn't start job searching until six months after graduation and you have absolutely no experience. Of course you're struggling if you spent most of your time screwing around at uni parties and events at the expense of your grades. It's time to take some responsibility because in disciplines just as competitive as law, you don't have as many vocal complainers. In general, it seems, law students are willing to argue about anything for the sake of arguing.

By the way, disregard what I have to say. I'm just a clueless university student who knows nothing, I've never talked to anyone practicing law, I've never had a job or any of that jazz (not srs) :lol:
 
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RivalryofTroll

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I actually get angry when I see later year law students with no industry experience and no idea what they're talking about shilling for law. If you're a school leaver, consider a generalist degree that will give you more career options like a commerce/arts degree, and if you're still keen, you can do a JD down the road. An LLB opens up similar but fewer opportunities than a straight BA.
Which is still 4 years (Comm/LLB being 5 years, an extra year). Not sure why so many people who end up in consulting/IB would do Commerce/Engineering (5.5 years) and Commerce/Law (5 years) when a Commerce/Arts degree opens up way more opportunities and is only 4 years.

I guess it's all lies when they say Big 4 tax recruit heaps of Accounting/Law or Finance/Law students.

What do I know. I should just drop my LLB and do Commerce/Arts now.
 

Dichromate

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Which is still 4 years (Comm/LLB being 5 years, an extra year). Not sure why so many people who end up in consulting/IB would do Commerce/Engineering (5.5 years) and Commerce/Law (5 years) when a Commerce/Arts degree opens up way more opportunities and is only 4 years.

I guess it's all lies when they say Big 4 tax recruit heaps of Accounting/Law or Finance/Law students.

What do I know. I should just drop my LLB and do Commerce/Arts now.
I'm pretty sure he meant commerce OR arts.
 

wannaspoon

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There seems to be an overwhelming amount of "horror stories" on whirlpool (on law and life in general), where, and wait for the truly impossible situation, you'll have people who scored average marks in average (not go8) universities, wondering why in 2017 they can't find a job, in a field that is more competitive than ever (as is every white collar industry).

I'm sorry but if you only managed to get a pass or credit average in your combined law degree and you had minimal responsibilities during university (and even if), then you deserve the predicament of being unable to find a job. The difficulty of law is greatly exaggerated. You'll hear people tell you that you need to give up your life, your sport, your hobbies and everything that you thought was fun, because this discipline is all consuming. I was told from day 1 that it's incredibly cut throat. Then when I started they said, "just wait for the REAL law subjects" (presumably the ones of greater density). I got there and it was laughable. Sure it was harder, but it was nothing that isn't doable. Some areas of law are complex and you need to apply the law carefully, considering the exceptions, but it's still words. Put me in an engineering or complex maths class, and now you're talking. I'd seriously struggle. It's not hard to get at least a distinction if you're consistent. Most of the course structure at UTS at least is quite balanced, between class participation, assessments that you sometimes have over a month to complete, and a final exam. And you're not clueless for the exams either. There are revision lectures, your tutor goes through practice exams with you and so on and so forth. I hear it's strikingly similar in other institutions. I'd say there are some hell-ish subjects (in structure more than content) but it's nothing earth shattering.

Wannaspoon, correct me if I'm wrong but I recall a few years ago you saying something to the effect of "I stay up for two weeks during my law exams; no sleep but that's how I pass". I remember reading that as I was entering law and preparing myself for what was ahead of me. I don't think it's a coincidence that someone who needs to cram the entire course work in the last two weeks before the exam, to the complete sacrifice of sleep, is complaining about the lack of opportunities in law. It should be worded "the lack of opportunities FOR ME".

There are students who will be the whole package; good grades, great personality, a critical thinker, solid EC's and experience. There are also people who get constant distinctions and high distinctions and can't even talk to you pleasantly for a minute without facilitating unbelievable inner cringe because they're just so awkward. There are people with high marks and who have extreme social anxiety; which is undeniably a negative trait in law. You have people who get credit to distinction averages who are leagues ahead of the HD bookworm students, because they're pragmatic and they have experience. They know how to get things going, know how to talk to people and in general they have decent connections.

Trying to link someone's failure to one aspect when everything matters is looking at a tenth of a painting in an attempt to understand the entire painting. It's nonsensical in every sense of the word.

The worst thing you can do to yourself is sit there all day reading horror stories on whirlpool, where every story teller there attempts to magnify their quality and underplay where they went wrong. Of course you're struggling to get a job if you didn't start job searching until six months after graduation and you have absolutely no experience. Of course you're struggling if you spent most of your time screwing around at uni parties and events at the expense of your grades. It's time to take some responsibility because in disciplines just as competitive as law, you don't have as many vocal complainers. In general, it seems, law students are willing to argue about anything for the sake of arguing.

By the way, disregard what I have to say. I'm just a clueless university student who knows nothing, I've never talked to anyone practicing law, I've never had a job or any of that jazz (not srs) :lol:
Come back to this thread after you finish your PLT in mid 2019... Think you got a bit confused, I was not talking about the job market at all (in fact, I would say job openings for juniors have really improved over the past 6-8 months)... I was actually talking about working at a firm...

You'll find that when you are on an industry award for a Paralegal (because there's no industry award for a Solicitor) while your boss is swimming in dough; drowning in a heap of HECS debt that you can't even consider paying off for at least 3 years (that's not much of a problem, but there are many other professions you can get into where you don't have this burden and probably earn more); covering your arse left, right and centre because the people you even work for try to throw you under a bus; etc; it really isn't what you bargained for...

The works mundane, driven by process, very administrative, mostly form filling, copping flak over the phone (by opposing sides and by clients), etc (you'll find that extracurricular activities like your certificate of participation in a Moot don't really help you in any way, shape or form)... I note that the profession has quite a few pompous arseholes also (just a side note, they normally get hammered down)...
 
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neo o

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Come back to this thread after you finish your PLT in mid 2019... Think you got a bit confused, I was not talking about the job market at all (in fact, I would say job openings for juniors have really improved over the past 6-8 months)
There was a spike here in Canberra because half of the Australian Government Solicitor quit. They were merged in to the Attorney General's Department, so are now on the AGD enterprise agreement. 20% bonus for paralegals, 20% pay cut for solicitors, no more bonuses and no change in hours or expectations for solicitors. It'd fucking hurt knowing that you're working 12 hour days when your paralegal is working 9-5 on 5-10K less and the useless tits next door at AGD are working a cozy 7.5 hours for the same salary. I mean, the nice thing I suppose is that it means at least two or three graduating classes at ANU get a shot in what is usually a fairly terrible local market for higher tier professional practice.
 

RishBonjour99

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Come back to this thread after you finish your PLT in mid 2019... Think you got a bit confused, I was not talking about the job market at all (in fact, I would say job openings for juniors have really improved over the past 6-8 months)... I was actually talking about working at a firm...

You'll find that when you are on an industry award for a Paralegal (because there's no industry award for a Solicitor) while your boss is swimming in dough; drowning in a heap of HECS debt that you can't even consider paying off for at least 3 years (that's not much of a problem, but there are many other professions you can get into where you don't have this burden and probably earn more); covering your arse left, right and centre because the people you even work for try to throw you under a bus; etc; it really isn't what you bargained for...

The works mundane, driven by process, very administrative, mostly form filling, copping flak over the phone (by opposing sides and by clients), etc (you'll find that extracurricular activities like your certificate of participation in a Moot don't really help you in any way, shape or form)... I note that the profession has quite a few pompous arseholes also (just a side note, they normally get hammered down)...
Just because you (and many other arguably academicaly sub par law graduates) have had a bad experience with law, doesn't make it shit. Some of the smartest people I know are in law (especially usyd law) and many of them have started clerking and grads at big 6. None of my mates hate it yet and they were all high achievers all throughout life. BUT, seriously, the job market isnt the best for your average law student. But if you're average, shouldn't be expecting to land your dream job anyway (could happen still).

Also, just because you go to big 6 corporate law, doesn't make you a bad person or someone who doesn't want to "help other people". The corporations have their role in society and do add value, although indirectly in most cases. You don't need to be a doctor in Africa or a human rights lawyer to be "helping people".
 
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wannaspoon

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Just because you (and many other arguably academicaly sub par law graduates) have had a bad experience with law, doesn't make it shit. Some of the smartest people I know are in law (especially usyd law) and many of them have started clerking and grads at big 6. None of my mates hate it yet and they were all high achievers all throughout life. BUT, seriously, the job market isnt the best for your average law student. But if you're average, shouldn't be expecting to land your dream job anyway (could happen still).

Also, just because you go to big 6 corporate law, doesn't make you a bad person or someone who doesn't want to "help other people". The corporations have their role in society and do add value, although indirectly in most cases. You don't need to be a doctor in Africa or a human rights lawyer to be "helping people".
Do you work in the industry?
 

RishBonjour99

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Do you work in the industry?
The answer to that should be pretty clear. You don't necessarily need to have first hand experience of something to have an opinion on something. I definitely don't work at a suburban law firm though.
 

neo o

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The answer to that should be pretty clear. You don't necessarily need to have first hand experience of something to have an opinion on something. I definitely don't work at a suburban law firm though.
I used to be pretty arrogant too. You'll learn, though judging from your signature, you gave up on law so I don't know why you're here slinging pooh.
 

hfis

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The answer to that should be pretty clear. You don't necessarily need to have first hand experience of something to have an opinion on something. I definitely don't work at a suburban law firm though.
lol
 

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How is that funny, the guy is studying medicine now... Which says a lot... :lol:
How exactly does that say anything? I still don't see how me studying something else makes everything I say invalid? All I said was the amount of shot law gets online by bitter people puts off/gives wrong perception to many prospectivr students. Its a bad market, not that bad.
 

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