Freedom of Choice (2 Viewers)

[Trebla]

Something that makes me hate my school even more:

Are teachers allowed to have control over what subjects you can do? I know that my school does in English and Maths. In other schools, teachers recommend, but students have the power to choose.
Does any other school have this "problem"?

At my school, there are restrictions for getting into English (Advanced) and Mathematics Extension 2. Apparently if a teacher does not think you are capable of the subject you have chosen, you have to change no matter what, you are faced with a barrier of resistance. That's how it works at my school in the Maths and English faculty. However, teachers can be wrong and people can change. I know that in English, many people who are capable of Advanced are forced to do Standard due to the head teacher's beliefs. Also, in Maths many people want to do Extension 2, (around half the grade wants to do it) but the Maths faculty only allows a limited number to do it.
Are teachers allowed to have control over what subjects you can do? If not, please post and maybe provide a post with a quote to prove that. I've got a gut feeling that the head teachers of Maths and English at my school are not meant to put such restrictions on people's intentions.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

i cant find u a quote just now, but i'll look for you. English is the only compulsory subject you have to do, and though the teachers can recommend things, they are not allowed to make decisions for you. in some schools u have to do religion but i think thats different. nothing else should be forced.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

i found this on the board of studies website:

"English - the compulsory subject

The Government notes widespread support for English to be the only compulsory subject in the Higher School Certificate. The Government agrees. The primary, perhaps pre-eminent, means of acquiring and enhancing proficiency in the English language is through reading, writing, reflecting over, critically analysing, and communicating about, the wide range of literary texts, media and other forms of personal and everyday communication. Future opportunities in further education and training, employment and other aspects of economic and social life in Australia are enhanced by mastery of English. "

does that help?...

 

[Trebla]

Alright, I need all the help I can get here. I've got to prove to the English Head Teacher, that I am capable of doing English (Advanced).
Here are the assessment records for English (Standard) in the Area of Study (The school marks bloody hard!):

My marks:
Essay: 67%
Mid-course exam: 67%

Standard averages:
Essay: 47%
Mid-course exam: 38%

Advanced averages:
Essay: 55%
Mid-course exam: 54%

According to the Head Teacher, I should be doing Standard. She has this belief that you will only do well in Advanced if you are above average. She thinks that I won't get a band 5 for my HSC with these.
I've tried to provide the following reasons to show that I am capable:
- I've got good marks in my AOS, well above the Advanced average
- I need a more competitive environment (Standard is full of bludgers)
- Someone I know that wasn't allowed to do Advanced and left the school for Sydney Boys is aceing Advanced and Extension.
- It scales up and will be better for my UAI.
- Had I gone to another school, I would have got a guaranteed Advanced
- I can improve on what level I'm on currently and people DO change
- My class teacher said I am capable of Advanced if I work hard

The Head Teacher has said this in response:
- My essay mark was marked softly in Standard criteria (BS! It's AOS! I was told they were marked on the same scale!)
- That person who went to Sydney Boys is lying about his results
- It's better to ace Standard than to do bad in Advanced
- Other schools are stupidly (she actually said 'stupidly') letting people getting into Advanced because of this (Say that in front of the principals of Fort Street, Sydney Boys/Girls and James Ruse!)
- My language skills are not good enough for Advanced
- I won't get above average in Advanced in the HSC
- The reason that students aren't given the freedom to choose what they want is because if they get a bad UAI, then they'll blame it on the teachers.
- There's going to be a larger workload, about 1.5-2 hours of work every day, that's how much time you spend on Maths (Typical of English teachers to talk about the evil Maths!)

I want to see your opinions and if possible a rebuttal against the Head Teacher's statement. Maybe some more valuable reasons that I may not have thought of. I sooooooo wanna prove that ***** wrong. I'm coming arguably at the top of Standard in regards to rankings. It can be said that I'm also leading a group of people who also want to get into Advanced.

 

[kami]

Alright, I need all the help I can get here. I've got to prove to the English Head Teacher, that I am capable of doing English (Advanced).
Here are the assessment records for English (Standard) in the Area of Study (The school marks bloody hard!):

My marks:
Essay: 67%
Mid-course exam: 67%

Standard averages:
Essay: 47%
Mid-course exam: 38%

Advanced averages:
Essay: 55%
Mid-course exam: 54%

According to the Head Teacher, I should be doing Standard. She has this belief that you will only do well in Advanced if you are above average. She thinks that I won't get a band 5 for my HSC with these.
I've tried to provide the following reasons to show that I am capable:
- I've got good marks in my AOS, well above the Advanced average
- I need a more competitive environment (Standard is full of bludgers)
- Someone I know that wasn't allowed to do Advanced and left the school for Sydney Boys is aceing Advanced and Extension.
- It scales up and will be better for my UAI.
- Had I gone to another school, I would have got a guaranteed Advanced
- I can improve on what level I'm on currently and people DO change
- My class teacher said I am capable of Advanced if I work hard

The Head Teacher has said this in response:
- My essay mark was marked softly in Standard criteria (BS! It's AOS! I was told they were marked on the same scale!)
- That person who went to Sydney Boys is lying about his results
- It's better to ace Standard than to do bad in Advanced
- Other schools are stupidly (she actually said 'stupidly') letting people getting into Advanced because of this (Say that in front of the principals of Fort Street, Sydney Boys/Girls and James Ruse!)
- My language skills are not good enough for Advanced
- I won't get above average in Advanced in the HSC
- The reason that students aren't given the freedom to choose what they want is because if they get a bad UAI, then they'll blame it on the teachers.
- There's going to be a larger workload, about 1.5-2 hours of work every day, that's how much time you spend on Maths (Typical of English teachers to talk about the evil Maths!)

I want to see your opinions and if possible a rebuttal against the Head Teacher's statement. Maybe some more valuable reasons that I may not have thought of. I sooooooo wanna prove that ***** wrong. I'm coming arguably at the top of Standard in regards to rankings. It can be said that I'm also leading a group of people who also want to get into Advanced.

Well unlike mathematics, music or language the eligibility for english extension doesnt neccesarily correlate all that much with marks in the 2 unit course though they are usually good students in advanced an extension student isnt alwas great at it. It really is more about how you cope with the concepts and such because Advanced and Standard are core subjects to teach people communication and presentation for use in work, most uni courses and tafe whereas the Extensions are more about analysis, literature and independent composition etc for people who plan to do some higher study - usually uni courses with a more humanities bent. So the stuff you do is totally different.

 

[kami]

Alright, I need all the help I can get here. I've got to prove to the English Head Teacher, that I am capable of doing English (Advanced).
Here are the assessment records for English (Standard) in the Area of Study (The school marks bloody hard!):

My marks:
Essay: 67%
Mid-course exam: 67%

Standard averages:
Essay: 47%
Mid-course exam: 38%

Advanced averages:
Essay: 55%
Mid-course exam: 54%

According to the Head Teacher, I should be doing Standard. She has this belief that you will only do well in Advanced if you are above average. She thinks that I won't get a band 5 for my HSC with these.
I've tried to provide the following reasons to show that I am capable:
- I've got good marks in my AOS, well above the Advanced average
- I need a more competitive environment (Standard is full of bludgers)
- Someone I know that wasn't allowed to do Advanced and left the school for Sydney Boys is aceing Advanced and Extension.
- It scales up and will be better for my UAI.
- Had I gone to another school, I would have got a guaranteed Advanced
- I can improve on what level I'm on currently and people DO change
- My class teacher said I am capable of Advanced if I work hard

The Head Teacher has said this in response:
- My essay mark was marked softly in Standard criteria (BS! It's AOS! I was told they were marked on the same scale!)
- That person who went to Sydney Boys is lying about his results
- It's better to ace Standard than to do bad in Advanced
- Other schools are stupidly (she actually said 'stupidly') letting people getting into Advanced because of this (Say that in front of the principals of Fort Street, Sydney Boys/Girls and James Ruse!)
- My language skills are not good enough for Advanced
- I won't get above average in Advanced in the HSC
- The reason that students aren't given the freedom to choose what they want is because if they get a bad UAI, then they'll blame it on the teachers.
- There's going to be a larger workload, about 1.5-2 hours of work every day, that's how much time you spend on Maths (Typical of English teachers to talk about the evil Maths!)

I want to see your opinions and if possible a rebuttal against the Head Teacher's statement. Maybe some more valuable reasons that I may not have thought of. I sooooooo wanna prove that ***** wrong. I'm coming arguably at the top of Standard in regards to rankings. It can be said that I'm also leading a group of people who also want to get into Advanced.

Well unlike mathematics, music or language the eligibility for english extension doesnt neccesarily correlate all that much with marks in the 2 unit course though they are usually good students in advanced an extension student isnt alwas great at it. It really is more about how you cope with the concepts and such because Advanced and Standard are core subjects to teach people communication and presentation for use in work, most uni courses and tafe whereas the Extensions are more about analysis, literature and independent composition etc for people who plan to do some higher study - usually uni courses with a more humanities bent. So the stuff you do is totally different.
EDIT: In my fatigue I realised I have gotten things...muddled
The Standard and Advanced courses are the same fundamental idea, one is simply for stronger students really...just go for it

 

[who_loves_maths]

Originally Posted by Trebla
Are teachers allowed to have control over what subjects you can do? I know that my school does in English and Maths. In other schools, teachers recommend, but students have the power to choose.
Does any other school have this "problem"?

At my school, there are restrictions for getting into English (Advanced) and Mathematics Extension 2. Apparently if a teacher does not think you are capable of the subject you have chosen, you have to change no matter what, you are faced with a barrier of resistance. That's how it works at my school in the Maths and English faculty. However, teachers can be wrong and people can change. I know that in English, many people who are capable of Advanced are forced to do Standard due to the head teacher's beliefs. Also, in Maths many people want to do Extension 2, (around half the grade wants to do it) but the Maths faculty only allows a limited number to do it.
Are teachers allowed to have control over what subjects you can do? If not, please post and maybe provide a post with a quote to prove that. I've got a gut feeling that the head teachers of Maths and English at my school are not meant to put such restrictions on people's intentions.

yes, your school is authorised to make decisions and/or place restrictions on your choice of subject persuances for year12 following on from year11 based on your academic performance of the penultimate year.
the thing is, teachers USUALLY make suggestions to you about doing certain subjects out of your interest. they don't restrict you simply because they don't like you, etc.

if however, you feel you have been hard done by, then your immediate strategy should be to make a plea (in the form of a letter) to the BoardOS seeking advice on unfair sanctions placed on you by your teachers.
your parents should write that letter btw.

 

[stainmepink]

hello! well, for us, at the beginning of the year we were made to do Advanced English, as well as Ext English. i'm in year 11 at sydney girls. However, some lucky bosos got out of doing Ext English through hard argueing and bringing in their parents to complain.

At our school they are also recommending us do 10 units instead of 12, and we might be faced with a load of shit from teachers if we decide to do 12 units. We are not allowed to do any more than 12, apart from the 2 units of IPT we did in year 10. But my situation isnt as bad as yours, definately.

We are already through the middle of year 11, you have to try your best to get into the Advanced english class, or your marks will be considerably lower if you remain and do standard, even if you are the same standard as some of the advanced students. i think your school is doing this so that the advanced students can gain the advantage of a higher range of marks, if you understand what i'm saying. For example, they would rather let 50 people get above 80 for advanced english, rather 100 people over 60 for advanced english. All in all, it works to the other kids advantaged. Just pull your weight enourmously and they will eventually see that you are worth being put in the Advanced course.


EDIT: actually my whole grade is made to do extension english and argueing never changed anything.

 

[Trebla]

My parents have managed to get an appointment with the principal regarding this. I might even consider changing schools.








A message to everyone:
Don't go to Sefton, if you are currently in Sefton, LEAVE now and change schools. The school may be good at Maths, but the teachers are crap at English. Last year, we've had only 9 Distinguished Achiever awards for an English subject, a whopping 70+ Distinguished Achiever awards for a Maths subject, only 2 distinguished achievers for Chemistry and Biology, and only 9 distinguished achievers in Physics. You'd expect better results from a selective school...

 

[stainmepink]

well looking at ur marks......they arent exactly top of the class material.... so maybe before u get all hot headed u should consider that maybe u should stay in standard and do really well in that... cuz standard and advanced are equal in scaling.

are you kidding? standard is set down at least 10 marks than advanced.

 

[kami]

the UAC scaling for Advanced and Standard is identical, but the way the Board of Studies awards marks is different I believe. Hence almost no one in Standard achieving Band 6.

 

[Trebla]

well looking at ur marks......they arent exactly top of the class material....

The school marks bloody hard. Everyone gets a higher HSC mark than the raw marks the school gives by 10-20 marks. So you're saying that although I got the top of Standard, and got well above the Advanced average, it's not good enough?! People do change you know.

so maybe before u get all hot headed u should consider that maybe u should stay in standard and do really well in that... cuz standard and advanced are equal in scaling.

I don't just want to get out of Standard for marks. I hate the classroom environment. There are people who are total bludgers and practically ask me for answers most of the time in class. Sometimes, I have to reluctantly give in. I need a more competitive environment as motivation to work even harder. Also, if I stay in Standard, I might be dragged down or scaled down (moderated as it is so called) into the hell hole of those students. It's apprently difficult to access higher marks in Standard and equal scaling won't help there. I regret not applying earlier and I regret not changing schools.

I've been pretty much wanting to go into Advanced ever since the beginning of term. The Head Teacher said she can look at my work at last in the middle of term 2. I handed it in as early as week 5. It wasn't until recently that I was told the outcome. I had a very long wait and it was not worth that wait. I kept asking and then she said next Tuesday or something, and on Tuesday, I came and she said come this Friday...! My class teacher said I should keep repeatedly harrassing her for it to show that I am keen to get in.

 

[Huratio]

Alright, I need all the help I can get here. I've got to prove to the English Head Teacher, that I am capable of doing English (Advanced).
Here are the assessment records for English (Standard) in the Area of Study (The school marks bloody hard!):

My marks:
Essay: 67%
Mid-course exam: 67%

Standard averages:
Essay: 47%
Mid-course exam: 38%

Advanced averages:
Essay: 55%
Mid-course exam: 54%

According to the Head Teacher, I should be doing Standard. She has this belief that you will only do well in Advanced if you are above average. She thinks that I won't get a band 5 for my HSC with these.
I've tried to provide the following reasons to show that I am capable:
- I've got good marks in my AOS, well above the Advanced average
- I need a more competitive environment (Standard is full of bludgers)
- Someone I know that wasn't allowed to do Advanced and left the school for Sydney Boys is aceing Advanced and Extension.
- It scales up and will be better for my UAI.
- Had I gone to another school, I would have got a guaranteed Advanced
- I can improve on what level I'm on currently and people DO change
- My class teacher said I am capable of Advanced if I work hard

The Head Teacher has said this in response:
- My essay mark was marked softly in Standard criteria (BS! It's AOS! I was told they were marked on the same scale!)
- That person who went to Sydney Boys is lying about his results
- It's better to ace Standard than to do bad in Advanced
- Other schools are stupidly (she actually said 'stupidly') letting people getting into Advanced because of this (Say that in front of the principals of Fort Street, Sydney Boys/Girls and James Ruse!)
- My language skills are not good enough for Advanced
- I won't get above average in Advanced in the HSC
- The reason that students aren't given the freedom to choose what they want is because if they get a bad UAI, then they'll blame it on the teachers.
- There's going to be a larger workload, about 1.5-2 hours of work every day, that's how much time you spend on Maths (Typical of English teachers to talk about the evil Maths!)

I want to see your opinions and if possible a rebuttal against the Head Teacher's statement. Maybe some more valuable reasons that I may not have thought of. I sooooooo wanna prove that ***** wrong. I'm coming arguably at the top of Standard in regards to rankings. It can be said that I'm also leading a group of people who also want to get into Advanced.

- BTW you exam marks are not very good. no offence but 50-70% marks are not good enough. you be looking at a bottom 20 rank in a good school + a band 3-4.
- English advanced does NOT scale better than english standard- you HSC subjects should NOT reflect scaling means, rather you should do what you enjoy. miss_gtr is right: standard and advanced scale the same.
- If you come to Killara High School, you will not be allowed in advanced. I'm sure you won't.
- Information about other students is NOT about you. You should be thinking of your marks other than other peoples.
- 'well above the Advanced average' - In Killara High School (comprehensive, non-selective) you're looking at about 70% as an advanced average.

 

[Trebla]

- BTW you exam marks are not very good. no offence but 50-70% marks are not good enough. you be looking at a bottom 20 rank in a good school + a band 3-4.

If you haven't realised already, my school marks fuckin hard. The highest mark in the half yearly was like 77%. People ALWAYS get higher in their HSC than that. The marks don't matter anyway, the thing is, I've scored a pretty good rank within the Advanced classes and the Head Teacher says thats not good enough.
To prove to you that they mark hard, take for example my SC mark. I got 86 in the SC as opposed to 67.5 in the trials!!!!

rather you should do what you enjoy.

I do NOT enjoy Standard especially because of the stupid classroom environment.

If you come to Killara High School, you will not be allowed in advanced. I'm sure you won't.

I do not go to Killara High School and my school (A SELECTIVE SCHOOL!!!!) was ranked 56th last year in the HSC.

Information about other students is NOT about you. You should be thinking of your marks other than other peoples.

I'm using the information about other students to show that the Head Teacher can often get it wrong. That other person used to go to my school and wasn't allowed to do Advanced until he left the school.

'well above the Advanced average' - In Killara High School (comprehensive, non-selective) you're looking at about 70% as an advanced average.

The average at my school is similar to the average in the state every HSC year in English, in Advanced it is often band 5.

you HSC subjects should NOT reflect scaling means

Well, get this. The Head Teacher's reasons are BASED ON SCALING AND MARKS! The reason she makes like 60-70% of the grade do Standard is because of one base reason. She has this idea that students doing Standard would get a higher UAI if they do it and they would have an advantage over the Advanced students. WTF!.

 

[stainmepink]

If you haven't realised already, my school marks fuckin hard. The highest mark in the half yearly was like 77%. People ALWAYS get higher in their HSC than that. The marks don't matter anyway, the thing is, I've scored a pretty good rank within the Advanced classes and the Head Teacher says thats not good enough.
To prove to you that they mark hard, take for example my SC mark. I got 86 in the SC as opposed to 67.5 in the trials!!!!


I do NOT enjoy Standard especially because of the stupid classroom environment.


I do not go to Killara High School and my school (A SELECTIVE SCHOOL!!!!) was ranked 56th last year in the HSC.


I'm using the information about other students to show that the Head Teacher can often get it wrong. That other person used to go to my school and wasn't allowed to do Advanced until he left the school.


The average at my school is similar to the average in the state every HSC year in English, in Advanced it is often band 5.


Well, get this. The Head Teacher's reasons are BASED ON SCALING AND MARKS! The reason she makes like 60-70% of the grade do Standard is because of one base reason. She has this idea that students doing Standard would get a higher UAI if they do it and they would have an advantage over the Advanced students. WTF!.

Then i suggest you get the hell out of your school.

 

[Huratio]

-If you haven't realised already, my school marks fuckin hard. The highest mark in the half yearly was like 77%. People ALWAYS get higher in their HSC than that. The marks don't matter anyway, the thing is, I've scored a pretty good rank within the Advanced classes and the Head Teacher says thats not good enough.
To prove to you that they mark hard, take for example my SC mark. I got 86 in the SC as opposed to 67.5 in the trials!!!!
-I do NOT enjoy Standard especially because of the stupid classroom environment.
-I do not go to Killara High School and my school (A SELECTIVE SCHOOL!!!!) was -ranked 56th last year in the HSC.
-I'm using the information about other students to show that the Head Teacher can often get it wrong. That other person used to go to my school and wasn't allowed to do Advanced until he left the school.
-The average at my school is similar to the average in the state every HSC year in English, in Advanced it is often band 5.
-Well, get this. The Head Teacher's reasons are BASED ON SCALING AND MARKS! The reason she makes like 60-70% of the grade do Standard is because of one base reason. She has this idea that students doing Standard would get a higher UAI if they do it and they would have an advantage over the Advanced students. WTF!.

- So the top marks are 77% - you marks are 10% under this top mark. If you are saying that the average is about 60% that means that the marks are bunched up. In response what are the ranks in the different classes? Percentage marks don't really tell a story.
- 'stupid classroom environment': What you are saying is that there are low scoring people that don't give a shit about their marks? You can excel in a subject regardless of the people in your class.
- You saying that your school is a selective school... who the fuck cares? Those averages are there for a particular year. This is completely irrelevant.
- If the head teacher doesn't let you- have you considered going higher? Asking your parents to talk to the principal?
- This is not a reason to do advanced either.
- The last statement is true... you excel in standard and get a good rank (i.e. top 20) you won't have to care about scaled means.


You only valid excuses of doing advanced is that: it has a disruptive classroom, and it scales low than advanced.
Your marks don't look like an advanced student.
I say you go to another school if you desperately want to advanced.

 

[Trebla]

and if ur marks are above average then the teacher would see u fit to be in the advanced class

They ARE above average

And you cannot compare your marks with the marks of the advanced english class at all......for one, they do different exams as you, they study different texts and modules, and a high mark in standard does not equate to a high mark in advanced.

The marks I have posted are from the Area of Study assessment tasks. Advanced and Standard did the same essay question and mid-course exam!

plus your well into year 11 now......... its a bit late to change to advanced.

You can still change subjects at this time, provided you can complete the preliminary course on time. I was going to change much earlier than now but the ***** said to wait...! That wait lasted almost whole term!!!

 

[shafqat]

Tough predicament. Get your parents to make a big deal about, like hassal the head teacher and stuff. They can make things difficult for you, but they shouldn't be able to stop you.

And although standard and advanced may be scaled the "same," advanced will give you an advantaged. Subjects are scaled according to the strength of that subject's candidature, which is quite poor for standard, as all students are forced to do english (and there are some very poor students down the bottom end of the state). Hence at our school, there were only abt 7 out of 190 (!) doing standard.

Maybe at your school they're afraid of fobs dragging down the marks, but you seem like a committed student, and essentially that's all thats needed to do reasonably well in adv eng.

Good luck.

 

[Trebla]

- So the top marks are 77% - you marks are 10% under this top mark. If you are saying that the average is about 60% that means that the marks are bunched up. In response what are the ranks in the different classes? Percentage marks don't really tell a story.

The stupid school does not release ranks in the grade.

You only valid excuses of doing advanced is that: it has a disruptive classroom, and it scales low than advanced.

Also, my class teacher did say that I was capable. Apparently she is powerless to help, probably because she doesn't want to get fired by the Head Teacher.

u cant use a distruptive environment and other students who dont try as ur excuse

Yes I can. Ever heard of 'Disrupting the learning of others'?

and a high mark in standard does not equate to a high mark in advanced

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus_hsc/pdf_doc/english_qa_support.pdf[/url]
"the Board’s standard-setting procedure, involving teams of experienced markers using professional judgment informed by statistical data and student responses, will be used to determine the band cut-off marks for the combined distribution so that a Band 6 awarded to a Standard course student is equivalent to a Band 6 awarded to an Advanced course student, and so on."

Explain that.


Also, I forgot to mention that the Head Teacher did say yes not so long ago. She said I was capable until for some reason she changed her mind. What a *!*!*!*. That was so bloody demoralising.

 

[kami]

If you are extraordinarily desperate...do the rest of your subjects at your school but do english advanced in a night class at tafe as they have prelim/hsc combined into one year as an option - its doable too, most of the kids in my 4u math night class are from other schools. Correspondence is an option too...but only if you are *really* desperate since advanced isn't *that* big of a deal if you don't want to do extension or have a fondness for shakespeare.

An additional note: You can't compare marks and standards across schools and say someone would or would not be in advanced at such and such school, it doesn't work. It's like saying that in the Blue Mountains they have Ancient History class in the morning so therefore Albury must have Ancient History in the morning too.