Greens call for a high speed rail link (3 Viewers)

[Richard Gilmore]

once the train passes east hills it would be a clear corridor through campbelltown and then off to canberra. i dunno a thing about melbourne.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

So under the Greens' proposal, where does the line begin and end?

If it ran CBD to CBD in 3 hours it would be pretty swell, but from the Sydney side that seems impossible.

The existing suburban lines are already at capacity, so converting them to HSR would wreak havoc in Sydney. The only alternative is drilling underground lines for many kilometers which would be extremely expensive.

aussie-boy's assessment of the air v HSR times is pretty reasonable, but if you have to catch suburban trains at each end as well with HSR, air once again becomes comparatively much faster.

 

[Optimus Prime]

If it ran CBD to CBD it'd have to go along suburban lines hence the 45 minutes in Sydney and similar (but a bit less) in melbourne.

Gilmore: How do you figure it would be a clear corridor to Campbelltown from east hills? other trains would be in the way and also it would have a similar limit to current trains on those lines anyway (~120) since the corners are too sharp to go any faster.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

If it ran CBD to CBD it'd have to go along suburban lines hence the 45 minutes in Sydney and similar (but a bit less) in melbourne.

Gilmore: How do you figure it would be a clear corridor to Campbelltown from east hills? other trains would be in the way and also it would have a similar limit to current trains on those lines anyway (~120) since the corners are too sharp to go any faster.

Then there's also the issue of waiting time which is significantly increased, because to be able to get the HSR from Campeltown, you may have to take a suburban train to Campeltown that gets there 15 - 20 mins early and then wait around at the platform, (which I might add is less comfortable than an airport and does not have wi-fi).

At a bare minimum, non CBD - CBD HSR is going to be 4:15. An hour and a half more than air by aussie-boy's calculations, and that's based on the best technology express trains, and a conservative estimate of travel times within each city.

 

[Optimus Prime]

The trains could still run to central like current XPTs, but it'd be at normal speeds.

Edit: train from C-town to central is ~ 50 minutes via east hills line so if it were the case that you had to get a suburban train you'd barely be in Canberra by the time the plane landed. And yeah, c-town station is a shit hole.

 

[aussie-boy]

At least 45 minutes to get out of Sydney, 1 hour to canberra, 2 hours to melbourne, 30 minutes through melbourne.

No way, you're just pulling figures out of ur ass

The Goulburn to Sydney train does Campbelltown to Central in 42mins already, with no dedicated line

The true HSL would start just after East Hills (look on a map and you'll see why)... so thats 24km from Central.

At 80km/h, that'd only take 18mins.
Then its 790km to Tullamarine = 2:28 @ 320kph
And then another 20ks into Melbourne = 15mins @ 80kph
So that's 3:01 total

Obviously this is only for the express services

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

No way, you're just pulling figures out of ur ass

The Goulburn to Sydney train does Campbelltown to Central in 42mins already, with no dedicated line

The true HSL would start just after East Hills (look on a map and you'll see why)... so thats 24km from Central.

At 80km/h, that'd only take 18mins.
Then its 790km to Tullamarine = 2:28 @ 320kph
And then another 20ks into Melbourne = 15mins @ 80kph
So that's 3:01 total

Obviously this is only for the express services

So if the trains run from central, won't the track have to be altered making it unusable to other trains.

Or even if the HSR can run on the same tracks, the high frequency of services you suggest will get say 2/3 market share will put enormous strain on the Sydney Suburban Network which is already congested.

A time of 3:01 very optimistically assumes not a single stop, the ability to build a very short route, and an average speed of 320kmph which would make it the fastest service in the world!

see here:High-speed rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The best average speed is the Shanghai Maglev at 313km/h, but for comparable distances, the fastest is 272km/h.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Looking at a map, you think a HSL can go straight over the hills near Woronora damn or are we running 300 km/h trains through the normal trains via glenfield?

 

[aussie-boy]

If we're going to go into detail...
In Sydney, the East Hills line has a dedicated set of express tracks between Revesby and Wolli Creek.
A dedicated set of tracks can also easily be built between Sydnenham and Erskineville Junction (the platforms are even already there)

So the problem areas are Wolli Creek-Sydenham and Revesby-East Hills; both areas which have room next to the line for an extra 2 tracks.

Of course, this means the HST would have to share track with express East Hills services between Revesby and Central - though as long as you sent the HST down the line first, you'd have no problems whatsoever

 

[aussie-boy]

Looking at a map, you think a HSL can go straight over the hills near Woronora damn or are we running 300 km/h trains through the normal trains via glenfield?

This is getting way too specific... but there's clearly sufficient land once you get to Holsworthy Army Base on the existing line to build a dedicated HSL

 

[Optimus Prime]

Dude look at the current timetable during busy times of day there are trains on that express line constantly, they would be able to run at the same speed as the express trains at best.

Edit: yes you could build a dedicated line parallel to the normal one there but it wouldn't be capable of 300 km/h trains as the corners are too sharp, and then it'd be in traffic. Like you said the current Goulburn train takes 42 minutes to Campbelltown (which isn't really the end of Sydney btw), like I said originally, ~45 minutes.

 

[aussie-boy]

A time of 3:01 very optimistically assumes not a single stop, the ability to build a very short route, and an average speed of 320kmph which would make it the fastest service in the world!

see here:High-speed rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The best average speed is the Shanghai Maglev at 313km/h, but for comparable distances, the fastest is 272km/h.

No, that's average 320kph over the length of the dedicated HSL - include the Syd/Melb bits and its down to 278km.

As one of the longest HSLs in the world, of course it will have one of the highest average speeds. (Not to mention that the earliest foreseeable completion date is ~2030, when average speeds will most certainly have risen)

 

[Richard Gilmore]

Gilmore: How do you figure it would be a clear corridor to Campbelltown from east hills? other trains would be in the way and also it would have a similar limit to current trains on those lines anyway (~120) since the corners are too sharp to go any faster.

There's a tonne of space out there to build a new line once you pass East Hills. Even if some houses needed to be occupied macquarie fields land isn't exactly expensive. The hardest part would be blowing another line through the sandstone near Holsworthy but that doesn't take a whole lot of effort.

Admittedly, the train would have to run slowly when curving out of holsworthy into glenfield i suppose. but yeah, the super slow section would only be from about east hills to wolli creek. again, once you get to wolli creek you have a bit more space available between there and redfern because the east hills/campbelltown trains run through the airport line. alternatively, and much more sensibly imo, the fast train could run through the airport and the existing line could run where i just said the fast train could run (the dotted green line on cityrail maps).

Edit: yes you could build a dedicated line parallel to the normal one there but it wouldn't be capable of 300 km/h trains as the corners are too sharp, and then it'd be in traffic.

only between east hills/wolli creek (a fair distance, tbh), and redfernish to central. like aussieboy said, there's space to run a fairly quickish service between redfern and wolli creek and from east hills and onward there's a lot of room (only problem is the bend from holsworthy to glenfield)

it'd be worth your while to actually look at a map of the campbelltown line - once you're past the glenfield bend there's not a lot of corners...

and i don't understand why we're all of a sudden chatting about people waiting at campbelltown...

 

[Optimus Prime]

bankstown and southern lines run from sydenham to central through Erskineville though.Fact of the matter is without a tunnel which would be unbelievable expensive it is going to take a while to get through Sydney.

 

[aussie-boy]

Dude look at the current timetable during busy times of day there are trains on that express line constantly, they would be able to run at the same speed as the express trains at best.

Edit: yes you could build a dedicated line parallel to the normal one there but it wouldn't be capable of 300 km/h trains as the corners are too sharp, and then it'd be in traffic. Like you said the current Goulburn train takes 42 minutes to Campbelltown (which isn't really the end of Sydney btw), like I said originally, ~45 minutes.

Yeh it is absolutely a real problem... and I don't know the solution

However, consider that only 15.6km would be shared, and that current express trains do this bit in 18mins (52kph)... add 9mins for the dedicated section (assume 60kph) and total Melbourne trip time -> 3:10 which is still pretty damn good.

Once you get to east hills, you wouldn't go strictly parallel - you'd take advantage of all the cheap industrial/agricultural areas and build a proper line.

Anyway all this calculation is stupid - most likely completely inaccurate due to the impossibility of mapping routes through topography without proper information sources

The main point is that I reckon it could be done within 3:30
For Wangaratta, Albury, Wagga, Canberra, Goulburn, Southern Highlands passengers this would make it the fastest mode of transport to their nearest city. For end to end passengers, flying would still have a time advantage but not a convenience/productivity advantage.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

The black line shows the current line, the red lines are possibilities.

1. The leftmost runs adjacent to the M5 where, on the West side, there is a fair amount of room.
2. The middle runs adjacent to the current rail line where, again, there is plenty of room on both sides minus a few forced demolitions near minto and ingleburn (i imagine it would stop at campbelltown as the last sydney station, so it could run on existing rails there as it slows down)
3. I just ran one through the flat upper Holsworthy barracks. I'm not too sure what the terrain is like beyond there though, but I ran it along a ridge so I assume it's going to be fairly flat.

bankstown and southern lines run from sydenham to central through Erskineville though.Fact of the matter is without a tunnel which would be unbelievable expensive it is going to take a while to get through Sydney.

what? south coast/illawarra lines have their own line. bankstown and east hills have dedicated lines im quite sure. and if you'd travelled through there you'd know there's enough space on the western side there for another two lines (As was the plan since there's a few abandoned railway platforms at redfern, erskenville and st peters)

again, the only traffic problems will occur between redfern-central/wollicreek-east hills.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I still don't see how you can possibly make the line less than 1000 km or so though dude. They can't build it through the snowy mountains which means it more or less has to go via wagga and albury and then since skipping Canberra would be madness bam, 1000 km.

 

[Optimus Prime]

ugh, they have there own lines but there are also points that must be crossed especially since the HSL would go to the central terminus which is on the northern side of the station. The other option is to use the spare underground platform at Central but that connects to the Illawarra line until Sydenham AFAIK, so the same problem. Not to mention there are many many curves there which means trains can't run especially fast through there anyway.

 

[aussie-boy]

alternatively, and much more sensibly imo, the fast train could run through the airport and the existing line could run where i just said the fast train could run (the dotted green line on cityrail maps).

But Green Square and Mascot are slated to become massively dense residential suburbs

I reckon track share with sped up East Hills express services would be the best option at the moment

In the future, there are also options like forgetting the city and going to Parramatta or Strathfield (especially considering that the next step is Brisbane)

 

[Optimus Prime]

If there was a metro from parra->central that'd be a great option. Problem is nowadays Parramatta is pretty much in the geographic centre of Sydney, and buying that much land, or tunnelling under it would be prohibitively expensive which means you have the same problem of running on existing track. Otherwise a high speed line up the coast would be bloody awesome, driving up the Pacific Highway is just awful.