"..growing number of law schools .. around the world that have moved to a JD.." (3 Viewers)

[DeVenne]

I am a 1st year JD student initiating study in March. Upon registering for tutorials this year I selected classes with the option of 'postgraduate only'. My understanding is that the JD is taught at a postgraduate level.

I have completed postgraduate qualifications in business, of which I found the workload, expectations and complexity much tougher than my undergraduate BA. The difference in workload was also due to a lot of assumed knowledge and experience. I have therefore assumed that the JD will also be taught at a postgraduate level? Particularly as I am enrolled in classes that are only for postgraduate students. Is anyone aware of the difference in workloads and expectations between an LLB and a JD?

At present I am ignorant and will continue to research the differences in LLB and JD as an outsider.

 

[RogueAcademic]

A post into which you are reading specifics about Melbourne uni and ivy league institutions. I mention no such thing. It largely relates to universities I am in close contact with like UNSW and USyd - simple as that. It is not a universally observed trend.

Come on now.. that's just a tad disingenuous. When put in context with your preceding post about graduate programs and the UMelb MD, and the LLB v JD being 'superficial bollocks' it's more than fair to infer that your following post is a reference to it.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Upon registering for tutorials this year I selected classes with the option of 'postgraduate only'. .

Which uni are you at? I'm not sure what you mean where you had an option of selecting postgrad only subjects. There should be a prescribed set of core law subjects that you'll do in the beginning of your law degree, usually, criminal law, contracts, trusts & equity, property etc.

 

[DeVenne]

Which uni are you at? I'm not sure what you mean where you had an option of selecting postgrad only subjects. There should be a prescribed set of core law subjects that you'll do in the beginning of your law degree, usually, criminal law, contracts, trusts & equity, property etc.

The option for all subjects on the student administration website states 'postgraduate students only' or 'LLB students' for exactly the same subjects. I believe by postgraduate, they mean Juris Doctor students. For example I have chosen 'criminal law' for postgraduate only. All the core subjects for the JD had this option.

I am at UTS.

http://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/articles/UTS-broadens-its-legal-horizons_z134732.htm

Perhaps I should double check I have enrolled in the correct classes.

 

[KFunk]

Come on now.. that's just a tad disingenuous. When put in context with your preceding post about graduate programs and the UMelb MD, and the LLB v JD being 'superficial bollocks' it's more than fair to infer that your following post is a reference to it.

Either you're overly argumentative or you are a troll. In either case I'm not going to bother arguing over my honest word. You may continue battling the scarecrow if you wish.

 

[RogueAcademic]

The option for all subjects on the student administration website states 'postgraduate students only' or 'LLB students' for exactly the same subjects. I believe by postgraduate, they mean Juris Doctor students. For example I have chosen 'criminal law' for postgraduate only. All the core subjects for the JD had this option.

I am at UTS.

http://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/articles/UTS-broadens-its-legal-horizons_z134732.htm

Perhaps I should double check I have enrolled in the correct classes.

Yes you should check because I don't really know how UTS structures their subject requirements and assessments. What I do know is that the UMelb JD used to structure their JD classes quite differently from their LLB. But now that they've dropped the LLB completely and going ahead with the JD, I'm not sure what their classes will be like.

At Monash, the JD students basically complete an LLM with their JD (it's actually called the 'LLM (Juris Doctor)', the subjects are structured more or less like their LLM program and the electives are chosen from their LLM stream. From the article you linked, it looks like UTS has done the same with their masters degree?

UTS law students do quite well after graduating:

A matter of degree

 

[RogueAcademic]

Either you're overly argumentative or you are a troll. In either case I'm not going to bother arguing over my honest word. You may continue battling the scarecrow if you wish.

Well my MBBS friend, I've responded to your points of arguments with clear explanations of how the legal recruitment works and some pointers with respect to the graduate degrees. Judging from how you were trying to argue your points, I bet you've learnt something new about legal recruitment today.

Feel free to bring up any further queries and I'll answer them for you. But if you are not aware of how the graduate degrees work and the changes that we are seeing in Australia at present, I suggest you read up about it before trying to argue topics which you've admitted not knowing much about.

 

[DeVenne]

Yes you should check because I don't really know how UTS structures their subject requirements and assessments. What I do know is that the UMelb JD used to structure their JD classes quite differently from their LLB. But now that they've dropped the LLB completely and going ahead with the JD, I'm not sure what their classes will be like.

At Monash, the JD students basically complete an LLM with their JD (it's actually called the 'LLM (Juris Doctor)', the subjects are structured more or less like their LLM program and the electives are chosen from their LLM stream. From the article you linked, it looks like UTS has done the same with their masters degree?

UTS law students do quite well after graduating:

A matter of degree

RogueAcademic thank you for bringing this to my attention. I have contacted student administration about the matter. From my student administration profile UTS have regarded the core JD subjects as 'core LLB subjects'. Obviously this is because all law degrees in Australia must adhere to certain subjects. The Juris Doctor is listed under 'postgraduate degrees' on the university website. How very confusing. To government deparments and other institutions I am listed as a graduate student. I am not sure what type of student I am.

The link you provided was good. Sometimes I am ever so aware that I am not a USYD law student. It is comforting to see that UTS students are regarded highly among top tier law firms.

 

[RogueAcademic]

RogueAcademic thank you for bringing this to my attention. I have contacted student administration about the matter. From my student administration profile UTS have regarded the core JD subjects as 'core LLB subjects'. Obviously this is because all law degrees in Australia must adhere to certain subjects. The Juris Doctor is listed under 'postgraduate degrees' on the university website. How very confusing. To government deparments and other institutions I am listed as a graduate student. I am not sure what type of student I am.

That does sound confusing. But all approved law degrees in Australia must conform with the Council of Legal Education, which includes completing all the core Priestley 11 subjects. Some universities mix their LLB students with JD students like I think ANU also does. Maybe that is how UTS works? UMelb* and Monash runs completely separate undergrad and postgrad programs for their LLB/JD.

*Because UMelb is phasing out their LLB, I believe their remaining LLB students are gradually being lumped with the JD program.

 

[DeVenne]

That does sound confusing. But all approved law degrees in Australia must conform with the Council of Legal Education, which includes completing all the core Priestley 11 subjects. Some universities mix their LLB students with JD students like I think ANU also does. Maybe that is how UTS works? UMelb* and Monash runs completely separate undergrad and postgrad programs for their LLB/JD.

*Because UMelb is phasing out their LLB, I believe their remaining LLB students are gradually being lumped with the JD program.

Yes I am thoroughly confused. Thanks for your assistance.

I have been reading a lot about the JD vs the LLB debate. Regardless of sentiment among undergraduate law students it appears that Australia will be slowly follow suit. I am undecided with regard to what is the best tertiary education for law students. I believe a previous undergraduate degree and life experience is invaluable for any career. Whether such elements for consideration amongst graduates will work in Australia if the LLB is phased out is another matter.

I have noticed in all sectors of the workforce there is an expectation amongst job applications for two degrees, a postgraduate qualification or a masters. This I have observed in Australia, particularly in Europe and of course in the United States. Law education in Australia is merely following this trend. For the time being we can only speculate and look to overseas for guidance.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Regardless of sentiment among undergraduate law students

I have a number of undergrad law student friends, and a number of practicing lawyers who graduated with the LLB. There's actually no real strong sentiment amongst us in regards to this issue. Funny though, that the strongest sentiment in this thread comes from one who is actually a med student, and correct me if I'm wrong but the other is someone who started a law degree but didn't complete it.

I am undecided with regard to what is the best tertiary education for law students.

It may help if you know what you want to do after graduating?

Law education in Australia is merely following this trend.

I would say UMelb is the one following the US, and the other Australian universities are following UMelb.

 

[DeVenne]

I would say UMelb is the one following the US, and the other Australian universities are following UMelb.

UTS confirmed today that 'postgraduate only' refers to Juris Doctor students at UTS.

And I believe you are correct that other Australian law schools will be following Melbourne University..

 

[DeVenne]

I have a number of undergrad law student friends, and a number of practicing lawyers who graduated with the LLB. There's actually no real strong sentiment amongst us in regards to this issue. Funny though, that the strongest sentiment in this thread comes from one who is actually a med student, and correct me if I'm wrong but the other is someone who started a law degree but didn't complete it.

I would have expected greater opinion on the matter. Perhaps people are not informed enough just yet, I have spoken to a few solicitors that are not even aware what a JD is! The graduate entry (only) law degree in the Australian context is also a new concept to many people.

On the commencement of my studies I will form an opinion, I am sure of that

 

[D.]

DeVenne, I looked into the UTS JD before deciding on USyd grad law, and from what I gathered, the "post-graduate" only courses, are in regards to the availability of night classes and other such things to make it more convenient for those who are working, or have other committments.

Ironically enough, while I find myself agreeing more with RogueAcademic's opponents in general (points of which I won't be drawn into a debate about), I myself adhere to the sentiment also expressed in RogueAcademic's post on there being no strong view on the matter within the field itself, as I don't care very much whether what I graduate with is called an LLB or JD. Admittedly, I do have a small preference towards the LLB title but it certainly wasn't a determinant. The main problem I see, which surprisingly wasn't addressed, is one of affordability. The Graduate LLB is covered by HECS, whereas the UTS JD is not. A quick check on the UTS site revealls the JD will set one back $52,560 total. However, the USyd Grad LLB costs $26031. While UMelb have CSP I wonder if we may be approaching the thin end of the wedge. I don't think any of us would agree that such a trend is a favourable one.

 

[DeVenne]

The Graduate LLB is covered by HECS, whereas the UTS JD is not. A quick check on the UTS site revealls the JD will set one back $52,560 total. However, the USyd Grad LLB costs $26031. While UMelb have CSP I wonder if we may be approaching the thin end of the wedge. I don't think any of us would agree that such a trend is a favourable one.

Yes the price certainty wasn't appealing. I have applied successfully for FEE - HELP for the JD which is essentially a commonwealth loan. I think the Graduate dip PLT is included in the price of the JD, and this would be at least one reason for the inflated price. I have noticed that any qualification described as 'postgraduate' is charged incredibly high. For example a master of business administration is around $40,000 at many universities.

Is the Grad dip PLT included in the price of USYD graduate law?

I actually have a loose plan of applying to USYD or UNSW grad law programs for year two of the JD.

 

[D.]

PLT isn't included in USyd LLB so you're right about the JD having that going for it. Conversely though, it means you're spending units on doing the PLT rather than doing other law electives (though you can choose them instead). I confess I don't know if that's really a drawback at all though.
I don't think the price of the JD is inflated by the PLT however, since you pay $365 per credit point regardless.

 

[DeVenne]

PLT isn't included in USyd LLB so you're right about the JD having that going for it. Conversely though, it means you're spending units on doing the PLT rather than doing other law electives (though you can choose them instead). I confess I don't know if that's really a drawback at all though.
I don't think the price of the JD is inflated by the PLT however, since you pay $365 per credit point regardless.

I can understand how USYD grad law would benefit your situation, there is also an option to choose extra law electives instead of the PLT within the Juris Doctor. Of course this would mean a higher cost overall when you enrol in PLT seperately.

The JD is six months shorter than the graduate law degree at USYD. In my current situation this is significant. I hold an undergraduate degree, a certificate and a graduate diploma that was downgraded from a coursework masters. After I complete the JD I would have studied at university for eight years. Those students who have a large amount of work experience and/or tertairy qaulifications would find the shorter degree very appealing.

It is interesting to compare the two degrees.

 

[D.]

I will have been in uni eight years when I finish at USyd so I can relate. I just don't see how double the cost for six months less is an equitable trade-off. Though, the JD's structure would be infinitely preferable I must admit. I think it's almost a matter of different strokes for different folks.

 

[RogueAcademic]

I think it's almost a matter of different strokes for different folks.

That's exactly it, in a previous thread I made the case for both the LLB and JD depending on what your circumstances are.

 

[D.]

You'd be more familar with it than I am, but are all the universities offering JDs making the same arragements as UTS in terms of evening classes and such?