Hamas (1 Viewer)

[davin]

Define terrorism then. Give a definition of what terrorism means, in your view.

you claim that the american forces are terrorists because of suicide bombings...they AREN'T suicide bombing. Al Queda, as well as Iraqi nationalist and Baathist groups are the ones doing that. THOSE are the ones that are terrorising the Iraqi people with them.

with recognising Israel, I think part of the issue is that the U.S. has been supporting negotiations, however Hamas does not acknowledge that there IS a state of Israel to negotiate WITH.

 

[Pubert]

There is no one to negotiate with, its their land and was taken from them 50yrs ago which really isn't that long at all.

You can argue that the US doesen't use traditional terrorist strategies, but Isreal bulldozes streets of homes, kills civilians openly (and i have seen obvious and intentional footage), shoots into crouds of civilians with children, all of this to create fear which is what terrorism really is. This creation of fear through murder, massacres and constant abuse is an attempt to force the Palestinian people out of their home nation, that is their long term goal. They make living conditions as bad as possible in everyway they can, they are still at this current time stealing Palestinian peoples homes and taking their possesions to live inside.

They have commited massacres of palestinian people yet the media and the international scence seem to forget that they ever occured even though they are common knowledge amongst them.

For example, in Sabra and shatila camps, the Isreali military wiped out a whole village in one night, this includes women, children and destruction of property which killed an absolute minimum of 3500 people.

When Jews are always talked about negatively you are always given a frown, this makes the discussion of Isreali attrocities against the palestinian people hard to argue as people always think of Jews as weak and defenseless.

 

[davin]

ok, so the definition we have to work with is creation of fear through murder and constant abuse. would you further agree to a differentiation that the point of whatever acts happen must be the creation of fear, so that we don't simply reach a point where any act that frightens anyone counts as terrorism but instead stay focused on acts carried out with the intent of creating fear?

no one to negotiate with? theres several million people living there that aren't Palestinians. further, the Israeli legislative body can have non-jews in it, and there are at least two parties that have seats that are Arab-based.

and so, you're making the claim that Israel routinely kills civilians for no other reason than that they are Palestians? keep in mind that this would exclude those that are associated with the organisations suicide-bombing groups of civilians, and that it would exclude those that are accidentally killed?

would you also agree, then, that the Israeli gov't is a terrorist nation because of its treatment of Israeli settlers when they pulled out of Gaza?

i would be interested to see citations on your claims, as at the moment it just seems accusations with little basis, but it could just be that not even spelling Israel right hurts the credibility of any unsourced evidence you bring into this

 

[Pubert]

Are you denying the existence of massacres against the palestinian people by the Isreali government for no other reason besides the fact that they are Palestinian?

And yes, Palestinians are being killed and toutured at a routine basis in Isreal for no other reason but them being Palestinian. They may hide behind the claim that it was an accident, but this is clearly not the case when they bomb a car using weapons which arn't necassary to be of that power or magnitude and 'accidently' kill several civilians.

Just because at times their intent was to kill a 'terrorist' who is usually innocent of everything except suspicion and take no precautions for innocent civilians and children in the area it doesen't mean that they have the right to justify their actions by calling it an accident.

This is exactly my point that i said before, if i were to doubt the existence of a massacre against jewish people then people would seriously be pissed off with me, but when this hapens with Arabs or muslims it is seen as if there is nothing wrong with it.

Lol, i never realised i spelt it wrong :S

 

[zeek]

lol @ America trying to enforce their political ideologies through force
lol @ mathmite for being ghey
lol @ people who object to Palestinians wanting their land back and saying that they should get over it, when the thought of Australian beaches being taken over by a few "sik cunts" turned out into a riot.

 

[davin]

i'm saying that i've not heard of said massacres, hense my asking about sources for that.

and i'm not saying the casualities caused by Israel using, say, a missle to get one or two people is acceptable. I have my questions about if its really justified to do that vs trying to capture them using ground forces, but I know i'm not informed enough on that intricate a level to really judge fully on that. However, there is, imo, a difference between not taking the chances of additional casualties into consideration and actually causing them.

people wouldn't be angry about you simply asking questions about a massacre of jews, per se, however if you're trying to invoke holocaust denial thats entirely different, as there is extensive evidence of that and the public is at this point very well aware of it, such that there shouldn't still be questions of "well, i don't think it happened". however here you just said "well, the israelis murdered thousands of palestinians, i read it somewhere, its true, believe me" and you've not given any links to back up that it happened, or that it is the policy of Israel to do such massacres.

 

[Pubert]

I don't know if this is what you would call proof but i just googled it. I don't think i need proof as it is recognised internationally even by the united nations.

Just a link for a bit of info i googled.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp#1

 

[Pubert]

The man who was going to testify against Ariel Sharon for taking part in the massacres was killed 2 days after he agreed to testify.

 

[davin]

ok, based off that alone....i will say its certainly something to be concerned about, i just don't have the time atm to do much additional searching to find out what happened with circumstances and all, but i will say that for a count that high, it is very questionable as to how that could be justified. Just taht the link you provided doesn't go into what actaully happened so i want to be a bit more informed on what the incident was.

i do not, however, see anything that indicates this is their policy overall, even if one grants the worst that this was one particularly horrible incident.

 

[Pubert]

There are others which are similar. And no it is not in their policy, however it is frequently overlooked and understated.

 

[HotShot]

Define terrorism then. Give a definition of what terrorism means, in your view.

you claim that the american forces are terrorists because of suicide bombings...they AREN'T suicide bombing. Al Queda, as well as Iraqi nationalist and Baathist groups are the ones doing that. THOSE are the ones that are terrorising the Iraqi people with them.

with recognising Israel, I think part of the issue is that the U.S. has been supporting negotiations, however Hamas does not acknowledge that there IS a state of Israel to negotiate WITH.

America has been the cause of increased suicide bombings! If it wasnt americas invasion of afghanistan and iraq then the number of suicide bombings would have been dramatically reduced.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

On the matter at hand: The US has no obligation to give anyone money, they feel that hamas is a dangerous government to their own, even if it was elected democratically - so they don't want to support it.

On the issue of the land: Historical arguments over land are really wank, nothing ever comes from someones historical right.... might is right - if the people of isreal can keep others from taking over their land (militarily/politically) then they have the right to the land.

America has been the cause of increased suicide bombings! If it wasnt americas invasion of afghanistan and iraq then the number of suicide bombings would have been dramatically reduced.

Ok... the invasion of afghanistan? Are you trying to claim that it would have been better for afghanistan to not have american interferance? This is a very odd position.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...aq/Sabra.asp#1

I don't see what's so surprising about this, people care more about things that hit close to home and involve people they can relate to...

 

[davin]

America has been the cause of increased suicide bombings! If it wasnt americas invasion of afghanistan and iraq then the number of suicide bombings would have been dramatically reduced.

thats utter insanity. the cause of increased suicide bombings is fanatical fundamentalists BLOWING THEMSELVES UP. They're not being forced into that in any way. The people responsible for suice bombings are the people that did the suicide bombings.

 

[HotShot]

thats utter insanity. the cause of increased suicide bombings is fanatical fundamentalists BLOWING THEMSELVES UP. They're not being forced into that in any way. The people responsible for suice bombings are the people that did the suicide bombings.

Regardless if it wasnt for americas intervention then they wouldnt be blowing up ppl. Suicide bombin has increased dramatically (not just by one or two) ever since the invasion of afghanistan and iraq.

Since the invasion it has led to the Bali Bombings as well.

 

[davin]

america's invasion doesn't enter into it....there's been suicde bombings before that.
heck, the whole thing that got the u.s. rolling as far as being more concerned with the rest of the world was a suicide attack on 9/11. suicide bombings have been going on for a while....and its just rather clear that they don't accomplish anything. there is something wrong with an ideology that thinks blowing up iraqi civilians will make the u.s. leave faster.....the fastest way to get the u.s. out would be to stop violence, because then there's not a need for the troops to be there.....and the numbers decrease when there's not violence, and then just increase after violence increases again

 

[HotShot]

america's invasion doesn't enter into it....there's been suicde bombings before that.
heck, the whole thing that got the u.s. rolling as far as being more concerned with the rest of the world was a suicide attack on 9/11. suicide bombings have been going on for a while....and its just rather clear that they don't accomplish anything. there is something wrong with an ideology that thinks blowing up iraqi civilians will make the u.s. leave faster.....the fastest way to get the u.s. out would be to stop violence, because then there's not a need for the troops to be there.....and the numbers decrease when there's not violence, and then just increase after violence increases again

hangon i minute i said after the US involvement suicide bombings have increased!

Not that they didnt occur before!

Maybe the violence is because Iraqi dont want to be democracy, much like the palestinians. Why does America have to force democracy onto countries if they dont want it?

 

[davin]

If Iraq didn't want to be a democracy, then why has turn out been as much as it has? why did Iraqis walk miles to vote, with the threat of suicide bombings present anyway?
there are millions of Iraqis that are risking their lives to be part of a democratic country, especially after Saddam did a good job of killing off plenty that wanted democracy back when he was running the country.

second, how does the violence show that Iraqis in general don't want democracy? who are the biggest target of bombings? average iraqis..they attack shopping areas and crowds, they're attacking iraqis, not fighting for them. its like some sadistic guy that says he only beats his wife because he "loves her". its a disfunctional logic.

 

[Xayma]

hangon i minute i said after the US involvement suicide bombings have increased!

Not that they didnt occur before!

Maybe the violence is because Iraqi dont want to be democracy, much like the palestinians. Why does America have to force democracy onto countries if they dont want it?

No the violence is because a small subset doesn't want democracy. A large group does. America just fucked it up by continuing to use a conventional army instead of treating it as a large scale police op (infilitration of groups afaik has only been in a few isolated cases).

 

[HotShot]

No the violence is because a small subset doesn't want democracy. A large group does. America just fucked it up by continuing to use a conventional army instead of treating it as a large scale police op (infilitration of groups afaik has only been in a few isolated cases).

Regardless of america fucking up or not, the violence has increased worldwide as a result of americas direct and indirect actions!

If Iraq didn't want to be a democracy, then why has turn out been as much as it has? why did Iraqis walk miles to vote, with the threat of suicide bombings present anyway?
there are millions of Iraqis that are risking their lives to be part of a democratic country, especially after Saddam did a good job of killing off plenty that wanted democracy back when he was running the country.

second, how does the violence show that Iraqis in general don't want democracy? who are the biggest target of bombings? average iraqis..they attack shopping areas and crowds, they're attacking iraqis, not fighting for them. its like some sadistic guy that says he only beats his wife because he "loves her". its a disfunctional logic.

Because they are been forced to by the americans - what choice do they have?

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Regardless if it wasnt for americas intervention then they wouldnt be blowing up ppl. Suicide bombin has increased dramatically (not just by one or two) ever since the invasion of afghanistan and iraq.

Since the invasion it has led to the Bali Bombings as well.

Do you mean to say Australia was not a target for terrorists until we invaded Iraq? Clearly the Indo extremists already hated us because of East Timor.