How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark? (1 Viewer)

ajdlinux

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I haven't read thread and I have no time for in depth answer so here is the most basic example I can think of -

Student 1 gets 100% in every single school exam and every HSC exam and is in some shitty outback country bogan school.

Student 2 gets 100% in every single school exam and every HSC exam but is in James Ruse.

Student 2 will be ranked higher. That is why the HSC is such a flawed fucking terribad system.

EDIT: Oh, and I heard that if your HSC marks differ wildly (wildly as in massive difference) from your school rank, the BOS will ignore your school ranking and scale you to JUST your HSC marks in regards to your ATAR. This is just what I've heard though, not sure.
What Shadowdude said, this is completely wrong.
 

A-Nonentity

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The way I have gathered it in my head is this, Every student does their Internal Exams and end's up with a Rank. Now! The Marks you got to get this rank basically don't mean anything! WHY you may ask? Because you get whatever raw mark you got in the HSC as your HSC Mark
so 50%= your raw HSC Mark
THEN!
the other 50% is what your RANK, whether it was you or someone else, In the HSC got.
Eg. you get Rank1 in the exam but you were orignally rank 5, whatever Rank 5 got, is now your other 50%

So it isn't really 50% Internal 50% External
it's actually
50% Rank
50% HSC Raw Mark.

NOTE: It isn't necessarily your exact Ranks number you will get, BUT the school is allocated a number of points achieved by all students. They then allocate the points accordingly to each Rank, thus why 1st gets the mark of rank one, then depending on the difference between one and two, the same percentile of difference is the same for the amount of marks given to rank 2.

EG. Rank one beat rank 2 by 1.1%, then Rank two will most likely get a mark 1.1% Lower.
That is what is meant by Moderation.

It often ends up that your mark will go up due to the massive achievment from Internal to External Exams, however it is also possible that your marks could stay the same depending on how low your rank is.


And that, To me at least, Is how an ATAR works.
 

Shadowdude

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Err... that's how the HSC marks work more or less, not ATAR.
 

theycallmebob

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A-nonentity has it completely wrong. Your assessment marks are what count, not the assessment rank. The reason the rank is stressed so much is that it is NOT the ABSOLUTE mark that is important, but your assessment mark RELATIVE to others in your schools. Say you come 10th in a subject. Say that 9th place beat you by 2 marks, but you beat 11th place by 20 marks. That sort of spread is retained after moderation of the marks - although the numbers may be 1 and 10 instead of 2 and 20, for example. The rank is important only in that assessment ranks do not change after moderation.
But ranks are more important in that they determine your final mark
 

theycallmebob

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But it can change completely... Like if you say get first at a shit school while only getting say 80%, and then get 98 in the exams also coming first it will transfer to your assessment mark
 

theycallmebob

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dude everyone knows that if you get first in assessments you'll automatically get the top exam mark transferred to your assessment mark. like a little bonus for coming first.

i don't mean to sound like a know not all but thats what EVERYONE says including teachers?
 

D94

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No that is not correct.

If a school with 5 students gets assessment marks in a particular subject of 80 79 78 77 76, and then get HSC marks (respectively) of 98 79 78 77 76, the effect of the 98 will be to lift the average of the whole group. So the assessments might become 84 83 82 81 80. The relative distribution of the assessment marks does NOT change. So in this (extremely oversimplified) process, your final mark would be the average of your exam mark of 98 and moderated assessment of 84. (Note: this is not how it works - the actual system is much more complicated - but it is MUCH closer to the mark than your explanation.)

There is not, and has NEVER been such a transference of marks in the HSC. However such a system did exist in the school certificate (in a different form) up to about 15 or so years ago.
This is wrong. According to your scenario, you've got first place raw = 80, first place exam = 98, and first place moderated assessment mark = 84. No. If first ranked gets 98 in their exam, and that is the highest exam mark, that student will definitely get 98 for their moderated assessment mark, their exam mark, and thus their final HSC mark will be 98, not the average of 98 and 84.

Your assessment marks are also wrong, even if I don't mathematically calculate it to the decimal. The first ranked person will get 98 for their assessment mark, and the last ranked person will get 76 for their assessment mark. First and last are pinned - they give the range of marks distribution. Then, BOS calculates the mean of the exam marks, and the mean of the raw marks, and aligns them together. Then, by a process of standard deviation from the mean, moderated assessment marks are generated.
 

theycallmebob

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This is wrong. According to your scenario, you've got first place raw = 80, first place exam = 98, and first place moderated assessment mark = 84. No. If first ranked gets 98 in their exam, and that is the highest exam mark, that student will definitely get 98 for their moderated assessment mark, their exam mark, and thus their final HSC mark.

Your assessment marks are also wrong, even if I don't mathematically calculate it to the decimal. The first ranked person will get 98 for their assessment mark, and the last ranked person will get 76 for their assessment mark. First and last are pinned - they give the range of marks distribution. Then, BOS calculates the mean of the exam marks, and the mean of the raw marks, and aligns them together. Then, by a process of standard deviation from the mean, moderated assessment marks are generated.
Thank you!
 

Cl324

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This is wrong. According to your scenario, you've got first place raw = 80, first place exam = 98, and first place moderated assessment mark = 84. No. If first ranked gets 98 in their exam, and that is the highest exam mark, that student will definitely get 98 for their moderated assessment mark, their exam mark, and thus their final HSC mark will be 98, not the average of 98 and 84.

Your assessment marks are also wrong, even if I don't mathematically calculate it to the decimal. The first ranked person will get 98 for their assessment mark, and the last ranked person will get 76 for their assessment mark. First and last are pinned - they give the range of marks distribution. Then, BOS calculates the mean of the exam marks, and the mean of the raw marks, and aligns them together. Then, by a process of standard deviation from the mean, moderated assessment marks are generated.
I dont think thats true. They have a process to deal with outliers. You dont automatically get the top assessment mark if you come first or the bottom mark if you come last.
Say for example mx2 at ruse had 3 people and their unmoderated assessment marks are: A=80, B=79, C=78.
They did the HSC and their external aligned exam results are: A=100, C=99, B=1.
Does that mean that person C gets 1 for their internal? Nah Im pretty sure they do all the mathsy stuff first and dont 'pin' marks just because outliers can really mess thing up.
 

theycallmebob

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I dont think thats true. They have a process to deal with outliers. You dont automatically get the top assessment mark if you come first or the bottom mark if you come last.
Say for example mx2 at ruse had 3 people and their unmoderated assessment marks are: A=80, B=79, C=78.
They did the HSC and their external aligned exam results are: A=100, C=99, B=1.
Does that mean that person C gets 1 for their internal? Nah Im pretty sure they do all the mathsy stuff first and dont 'pin' marks just because outliers can really mess thing up.
But no.1 definitely gets first.
 

D94

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I dont think thats true. They have a process to deal with outliers. You dont automatically get the top assessment mark if you come first or the bottom mark if you come last.
Say for example mx2 at ruse had 3 people and their unmoderated assessment marks are: A=80, B=79, C=78.
They did the HSC and their external aligned exam results are: A=100, C=99, B=1.
Does that mean that person C gets 1 for their internal? Nah Im pretty sure they do all the mathsy stuff first and dont 'pin' marks just because outliers can really mess thing up.
Well, obviously taking into account outliers. But the example that braintic gave, there weren't any outliers, so I just used that example for my explanation. When I say "first and last", it means for those applicable to be ranked in a group.

However, first will definitely get the highest exam mark as their assessment mark, no matter how outlier-ish they are.

In your case, they take out person B and so Person A and C will get 100 and 99 respectively for their HSC marks. Person B will be taken out, and probably be given the average of 1 and the mark calculated by deviating their position from the mean.
 
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Cl324

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Yeah I totally get what you mean though. Just pointing out that moderation is different for outliers :)
 

someth1ng

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OK, I've done a little reading, and it confirms that I am not correct regarding the top mark.

However the other point I was making about scaling was confirmed as correct (from a BOS document).
Quoting from the document: "Provided the shapes of the distributions of the school assessments and the examination marks are roughly the same, the relative differences (or gaps) between the students’ moderated assessments will be approximately the same as between their school assessments."
In other words, it is not the ranks per se that are important, but the differences between the raw assessment marks of students with consecutive ranks.
So, to take an extreme example, say the top person in your year gets a school assessment of 90, the next 47 people are tied on 85, you are ranked 49th with 84, and the 50th and final person has a mark of 50.
Your assessment will be moderated to just under the moderated assessment mark of those who scored 85, and way ahead of the person who scored 50.
You don't get massively penalized because your rank is 49/50 - it is the relative marks that matter.

I know most of you realise this already, but my aim was to counter the the claim that "ranks are more important than marks". Unfortunately I allowed myself to be sidetracked by a special case where I turned out to be incorrect. But most people don't come first in their school, and the claim I was trying to argue against is generally incorrect.
Well, if you're near the top, your gap might be might be considerable but your mark still won't be a huge difference.
 

cem

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Marks are important as they determine the rank and the relative gaps between the ranks. These ranks and relative gaps are then used to determine the moderated internal assessment mark.

Therefore internal marks are important as a poor internal mark will, in most cases, result in a poor internal rank or a smaller than it should be relative gap - affecting the final assessment marks.
 

Riaa

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I maintain that ranking is more important.
+1.
Ranking plus the gap between you and first place.
Hence, why it is crucial to help your cohort during the HSC as it could ultimately push you up. (Assuming you are not 1st both internally and externally or last, unfortunately for both).

Since generally school rankings reflect this gap..
It in effect, it will effect te calculation of your atar
 

y510920

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school ranking is super important and it affects your HSC mark ALOT, as a 2011 HSC student, i have ALREADY personally experienced the effects of school rankings, my school previously ranked mid 30s now ranking mid 20s, i compared my trial mark, my internal and school rankings along with other students from other schools, and I realised, correspondingly those who are in schools with higher school rankings are getting better mark than me, and those with lower school rankings are getting lower mark, the school ranking readjusts their internal marks, they varies ENORMOUSLY despite having similar HSC mark. So, get into a good school like mine and your HSC mark will shine.
 

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