HSC Maths Exam Gets an F for Failing Our Students (2 Viewers)

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

1. Only mathsx2 is similar-ish. Oh ye also, for mx2 we should be trying to compare to JEE Advanced. ignore english for them, cuz second language.

If u look at chem/phys, that's where differences in difficulty becomes very obvious, especially with the cookie-cutter phys we do. Look at JEE Advanced chem/phys lmfao.

2. Ye perhaps a bit glamorised.

3. University rankings are absolute bullshit. They depend on a variety of factors, including some arguably irrelevant and unfair metrics. Seoul National University students would absolutely smoke students at any uni in australia in STEM.

The last idea of 'over-exerting' is wrong. What should be argued is that we're on average clearly 'under-exerting' students, and we should reach some level of exertion somewhere in between HSC and other countries. By virtue of the HSC being so flexible in what subjects you choose, sacrifice is made, and students can opt for easy choices.
There is everything to be gained by raising the average education level.

Defining lives is pretty idiotic, but pragmatic. In Aus, where we have so many resources for so little people, we fortunately do not have to 'cull' as much. This allows us the luxury of having less selective tests, but nonetheless, this is not an excuse to under-educate the populace, and be less competitive globally.


Yes, the main problem is the culture of not putting in effort. Perhaps there is something to be gained from deleting standard subjects, and other easier subjects to force people to attempt harder ones.
Lower retention rates could be good, if balanced properly against increasing the average ability of the people who are retained.

Yes the lower years is an absolute problem. Primary schools should be improved. Teaching is way too lax in junior years. Science and maths should be properly introduced and taught to build solid fundamentals, from which Yr12 STEM can be made harder. I'm sure the sacrifice that comes with actually learning during junior years (if that is a sacrifice) can be made up for by the smoother transition.

Any form of compulsion will be challenged/ignored as evident in people doing primary school maths. Heavy stigma of Maths + Science being nerdy subjects/too hard to bother/useless here, not trying to sound cringe or anything but if you went to a public school you would know.

Difficulty doesn't really matter because the majority of people who are already doing MX1/2 are already "committed" in the sense they're willing to "study seriously" + scaling

Dilemma IG is pulling people into maths/science without scaring them away while also preserving the challenge which makes it worthwhile in the first place and yeah its definitely just culture + early year education.

IDK if its a big thing but most of my public school friends have maths teachers/physics teachers without their respective backgrounds so there might be a BIO teacher teaching physics etc.

But yea just my thoughts aight gotta get back to phys prep XD

 

[yanujw]

POV: kurt when he hears that his students cannot keep up

On the topic of stress. Personally, don't really care.

***
On a serious note, it's not healthy to disregard stress. I don't believe that primary school students should have academic anxiety for anything at all - not for naplan, the selective test or anything in spite of what parents say, because it honestly won't matter in the long run. So I humbly disagree with your essay above.

 

[Nedom]

POV: kurt when he hears that his students cannot keep up


***
On a serious note, it's not healthy to disregard stress. I don't believe that primary school students should have academic anxiety for anything at all - not for naplan, the selective test or anything in spite of what parents say, because it honestly won't matter in the long run. So I humbly disagree with your essay above.

I think I'm healthy. Pretty sure. Well, I mean I don't feel stress cause I don't really see a point of stressing as that will only degrade your ability to think with a clear mind, so it doesn't really exist in my dictionary. (Kinda sounds like a nerd but: It reduces efficiency).

Too late right now to get my thoughts out in a succinct matter, so keeping it short:
- Going back to "No pain. No gain"
--> If a student is mature (some may say otherwise), they would understand that putting in more effort (i.e. starting a bit early, such as in primary) will allow them to reap the benefits (however minute) of getting into a better school for a better education, getting familiar with the content or help start to build effective study habits. It may be to further themselves or to get an even footing (not every person is born equal (economically, socially, etc.)(not in a racist way)). You can not deny that JRAHS overall absolutely smokes other schools across the state and that the higher the ranking of the selective school the better the learning environment/atmosphere.

 

[idkkdi]

Definitely agree with notme123 and idkkdi. (Didn't really wanna write up a whole ass essay to post so I didn't really cover many aspects in my first comment)

To build on idkkdi's comments:
I don't know if this is just me being depressed, edgy or just simply 'Asian parent' mindset, but I don't really believe there is such thing as a childhood. More often than not, there are many parents/people (probably not Asian, hahaha) that advocate for children to have a proper childhood and thus use that as a foundational argument for the need to maintain the status quo of the Australian education system of being a relaxed one. But what is a proper childhood? How much does one even remember from their childhood? There are certainly things that evoke nostalgia, such as toys, food (especially from a loved one), games or a location, etc., but how many of the memories that accompany them are actually vivid, and/or we can say that encompassed a long X amount of years my childhood, where we can actually identify the value of X. What I'm trying to get at is that the Australian culture of being lax is certainly what makes the country great and very much enjoyable, but that doesn't mean that it should be applied to every aspect, certainly not the education of the children that are the country's future (in China, students are referred to as "祖国的花朵,国家的栋梁“, "flowers of the country, the pillars of the country" translated, referring to the hope in students as the country invests into them (like flowers that need maintenance/catering for) as they will become pillars of the country, but also a flower being symbolic of youth and hope/brightness).

If children in a country like China (chose cause I am the most familiar with it in the Asia region) are still able to have a 'childhood' even though many are forced/pushed into extracurricular activities, it goes to show that you do not require the many years which Australian children have to actually attain a childhood. Through the 'sacrifice' (if it even counts as one - which idkkdi also commented on) of some time in junior years to develop an understanding of the fields that awaits them, students can actually attain a proper foundational understanding of what they may want to do in university to lessen the impact from the escalation of difficulty between high school and university. It also will stop some people from wasting years of uni jumping between courses because they didn't really understand what they were getting into, or just didn't truly know what they enjoy.

On the topic of stress. Personally, don't really care. This may come across as quite extreme, but I think emotions only come in the way of efficiency (yes, empthay ties with morals and ethics, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). If a person is passionate about something they will dedicate themselves to it, and typically, desire is quite an unstoppable force. This may not be always true, but "No pain. No gain".

I think I'm healthy. Pretty sure. Well, I mean I don't feel stress cause I don't really see a point of stressing as that will only degrade your ability to think with a clear mind, so it doesn't really exist in my dictionary. (Kinda sounds like a nerd but: It reduces efficiency).

Too late right now to get my thoughts out in a succinct matter, so keeping it short:
- Going back to "No pain. No gain"
--> If a student is mature (some may say otherwise), they would understand that putting in more effort (i.e. starting a bit early, such as in primary) will allow them to reap the benefits (however minute) of getting into a better school for a better education, getting familiar with the content or help start to build effective study habits. It may be to further themselves or to get an even footing (not every person is born equal (economically, socially, etc.)(not in a racist way)). You can not deny that JRAHS overall absolutely smokes other schools across the state and that the higher the ranking of the selective school the better the learning environment/atmosphere.

definitely coming across as edgy lol, but i respect the grindset

 

[Auzendriel]

Definitely agree with notme123 and idkkdi. (Didn't really wanna write up a whole ass essay to post so I didn't really cover many aspects in my first comment)

To build on idkkdi's comments:
I don't know if this is just me being depressed, edgy or just simply 'Asian parent' mindset, but I don't really believe there is such thing as a childhood. More often than not, there are many parents/people (probably not Asian, hahaha) that advocate for children to have a proper childhood and thus use that as a foundational argument for the need to maintain the status quo of the Australian education system of being a relaxed one. But what is a proper childhood? How much does one even remember from their childhood? There are certainly things that evoke nostalgia, such as toys, food (especially from a loved one), games or a location, etc., but how many of the memories that accompany them are actually vivid, and/or we can say that encompassed a long X amount of years my childhood, where we can actually identify the value of X. What I'm trying to get at is that the Australian culture of being lax is certainly what makes the country great and very much enjoyable, but that doesn't mean that it should be applied to every aspect, certainly not the education of the children that are the country's future (in China, students are referred to as "祖国的花朵,国家的栋梁“, "flowers of the country, the pillars of the country" translated, referring to the hope in students as the country invests into them (like flowers that need maintenance/catering for) as they will become pillars of the country, but also a flower being symbolic of youth and hope/brightness).

If children in a country like China (chose cause I am the most familiar with it in the Asia region) are still able to have a 'childhood' even though many are forced/pushed into extracurricular activities, it goes to show that you do not require the many years which Australian children have to actually attain a childhood. Through the 'sacrifice' (if it even counts as one - which idkkdi also commented on) of some time in junior years to develop an understanding of the fields that awaits them, students can actually attain a proper foundational understanding of what they may want to do in university to lessen the impact from the escalation of difficulty between high school and university. It also will stop some people from wasting years of uni jumping between courses because they didn't really understand what they were getting into, or just didn't truly know what they enjoy.

On the topic of stress. Personally, don't really care. This may come across as quite extreme, but I think emotions only come in the way of efficiency (yes, empthay ties with morals and ethics, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). If a person is passionate about something they will dedicate themselves to it, and typically, desire is quite an unstoppable force. This may not be always true, but "No pain. No gain".

I was born in China. My dad had to go through the Gaokao. I must say, you have no idea how badly the Gaokao impacts on a developing teenager's mental and physical health. They put kids through hell. Students attend classes that go to the evening and get a lot of tutoring. It does not stop. This has nothing to do with preserving 'childhood innocence'. People commit suicide because their futures are on the line. This is not a matter of 'no pain no gain' at all. The pressure from the Gaokao often results in trauma and impacts negatively on someone's worldview. China's quantitative measures (which, is I suppose necessary due to its high population), leads to less of more creative thinking, something more valued in Western society. This has nothing to do with 'childhood' and 'nostalgia'. It would put people's lives at risk. Mental health is not a joke - over the course of this year there has been concerning shit expressed by all my peers about the HSC. You cannot take this lightly. Just because Chinese people go through with it doesn't mean it doesn't affect the kids. That shit stays with you. Just because Western society values mental health more doesn't make Western kids any weaker. I used to agree with your standpoint but after going through depressive episodes and being put on meds things changed.

However, I do believe that the curriculum here is highly flawed. They seem to have been making content easier every iteration od the curriculum, and also kids across the board seem to be falling behind despite this. This is the system's fault. Our teaching standards are not up to par, and students are hence unable to meet their potential in the first place. You need to be aware of how much shitty teachers impact on students and the socioeconomic factors which impact on the educational access a kid can have. Not all of my friends could afford tutoring when they had shitty teachers, and I have had a lot of intelligent friends being fucked over because of how the HSC is structured. With bad teachers, no one is there to provide intrinsic motivation and encouragement for *learning*, and on the other side of the coin you have hand holding in some high schools which results in kids dropping out, switching degrees in uni.

The curriculum's goal seems like it is set on giving a quantitative final result for everyone, because that's easy. We need to change up what the ATAR really means. It feels like a lot of people end up switching degrees because they picked initial courses based on prestige n popularity n shit given ATAR thresholds. This is sad and counterproductive. The curriculum should take a more humanising approaching which simultaneously rewards high academic performers and encourage people to find what they are truly passionate for.

In the end I think you are overvaluing the whole secondary system. It is only a means to an end. Do I agree that it underprepares people for irl? Absolutely. However it also imparts completely unnecessary stress and going through this shit has been a demoralising process, and for what? A fucking number. I've met a lot of people who have got shit ATARs and have a decent life, it means nothing. Bored of Studies is often a kind of a circle jerk with typically 95+ ATAR students.

 

[Auzendriel]

I think I'm healthy. Pretty sure. Well, I mean I don't feel stress cause I don't really see a point of stressing as that will only degrade your ability to think with a clear mind, so it doesn't really exist in my dictionary. (Kinda sounds like a nerd but: It reduces efficiency).

Too late right now to get my thoughts out in a succinct matter, so keeping it short:
- Going back to "No pain. No gain"
--> If a student is mature (some may say otherwise), they would understand that putting in more effort (i.e. starting a bit early, such as in primary) will allow them to reap the benefits (however minute) of getting into a better school for a better education, getting familiar with the content or help start to build effective study habits. It may be to further themselves or to get an even footing (not every person is born equal (economically, socially, etc.)(not in a racist way)). You can not deny that JRAHS overall absolutely smokes other schools across the state and that the higher the ranking of the selective school the better the learning environment/atmosphere.

The maturity argument lies a bit flat. You are viewing everything too much from an academic lens. I have friends who specifically chose TAFE because that is genuinely what they want to pursue. They have, in a mature manner, made the choice to not play the ATAR game, and I am sick of people looking down at such choices. You talk about getting into a better school for a better education but in Australia, tertiary education is pretty decent across the board. The whole Go8 thing is pretty elitist. Going to a none Go8 uni does not impact on your chances of getting a job, which is the goal right? Not everyone is academically inclined and it seems like you can't accept that. We don't live in a country (like China) which 100% requires you to excel at academics. It's not the end of the world if you get in a less prestigious university here.

 

[Auzendriel]

I think I'm healthy. Pretty sure. Well, I mean I don't feel stress cause I don't really see a point of stressing as that will only degrade your ability to think with a clear mind, so it doesn't really exist in my dictionary. (Kinda sounds like a nerd but: It reduces efficiency).

Too late right now to get my thoughts out in a succinct matter, so keeping it short:
- Going back to "No pain. No gain"
--> If a student is mature (some may say otherwise), they would understand that putting in more effort (i.e. starting a bit early, such as in primary) will allow them to reap the benefits (however minute) of getting into a better school for a better education, getting familiar with the content or help start to build effective study habits. It may be to further themselves or to get an even footing (not every person is born equal (economically, socially, etc.)(not in a racist way)). You can not deny that JRAHS overall absolutely smokes other schools across the state and that the higher the ranking of the selective school the better the learning environment/atmosphere.

Just because you don't 'feel stress' doesn't mean others don't, and it doesn't make you any better than everyone else. It doesn't sound 'nerdy', just comes across as rather self centred and ignorant. You seem to have a narrow mindset about what education is supposed to achieve. Based on your logic, are we just going to ignore people who aren't all rounders? Some people naturally aren't good at maths, do you look down at them before being good at stuff like art and choosing to study that stuff? Are you one of those people who believe only people who study STEM will amount to something in life? To achieve success, financial stability?

I think philosophically we have conflicting views of what a 'good life' looks like.

 

[idkkdi]

friendly reminder, exams have not finished yet lol the argument can happen later haha

 

[Longbottom]

friendly reminder, exams have not finished yet lol the argument can happen later haha

I’ve lost a good amount of physics cramming because of this

 

[Auzendriel]

friendly reminder, exams have not finished yet lol the argument can happen later haha

I've long accepted I'm not getting the ATAR I wanted before.

 

[Nedom]

I was born in China. My dad had to go through the Gaokao. I must say, you have no idea how badly the Gaokao impacts on a developing teenager's mental and physical health. They put kids through hell. Students attend classes that go to the evening and get a lot of tutoring. It does not stop. This has nothing to do with preserving 'childhood innocence'. People commit suicide because their futures are on the line. This is not a matter of 'no pain no gain' at all. The pressure from the Gaokao often results in trauma and impacts negatively on someone's worldview. China's quantitative measures (which, is I suppose necessary due to its high population), leads to less of more creative thinking, something more valued in Western society. This has nothing to do with 'childhood' and 'nostalgia'. It would put people's lives at risk. Mental health is not a joke - over the course of this year there has been concerning shit expressed by all my peers about the HSC. You cannot take this lightly. Just because Chinese people go through with it doesn't mean it doesn't affect the kids. That shit stays with you. Just because Western society values mental health more doesn't make Western kids any weaker. I used to agree with your standpoint but after going through depressive episodes and being put on meds things changed.

However, I do believe that the curriculum here is highly flawed. They seem to have been making content easier every iteration od the curriculum, and also kids across the board seem to be falling behind despite this. This is the system's fault. Our teaching standards are not up to par, and students are hence unable to meet their potential in the first place. You need to be aware of how much shitty teachers impact on students and the socioeconomic factors which impact on the educational access a kid can have. Not all of my friends could afford tutoring when they had shitty teachers, and I have had a lot of intelligent friends being fucked over because of how the HSC is structured. With bad teachers, no one is there to provide intrinsic motivation and encouragement for *learning*, and on the other side of the coin you have hand holding in some high schools which results in kids dropping out, switching degrees in uni.

The curriculum's goal seems like it is set on giving a quantitative final result for everyone, because that's easy. We need to change up what the ATAR really means. It feels like a lot of people end up switching degrees because they picked initial courses based on prestige n popularity n shit given ATAR thresholds. This is sad and counterproductive. The curriculum should take a more humanising approaching which simultaneously rewards high academic performers and encourage people to find what they are truly passionate for.

In the end I think you are overvaluing the whole secondary system. It is only a means to an end. Do I agree that it underprepares people for irl? Absolutely. However it also imparts completely unnecessary stress and going through this shit has been a demoralising process, and for what? A fucking number. I've met a lot of people who have got shit ATARs and have a decent life, it means nothing. Bored of Studies is often a kind of a circle jerk with typically 95+ ATAR students.

The maturity argument lies a bit flat. You are viewing everything too much from an academic lens. I have friends who specifically chose TAFE because that is genuinely what they want to pursue. They have, in a mature manner, made the choice to not play the ATAR game, and I am sick of people looking down at such choices. You talk about getting into a better school for a better education but in Australia, tertiary education is pretty decent across the board. The whole Go8 thing is pretty elitist. Going to a none Go8 uni does not impact on your chances of getting a job, which is the goal right? Not everyone is academically inclined and it seems like you can't accept that. We don't live in a country (like China) which 100% requires you to excel at academics. It's not the end of the world if you get in a less prestigious university here.

Just because you don't 'feel stress' doesn't mean others don't, and it doesn't make you any better than everyone else. It doesn't sound 'nerdy', just comes across as rather self centred and ignorant. You seem to have a narrow mindset about what education is supposed to achieve. Based on your logic, are we just going to ignore people who aren't all rounders? Some people naturally aren't good at maths, do you look down at them before being good at stuff like art and choosing to study that stuff? Are you one of those people who believe only people who study STEM will amount to something in life? To achieve success, financial stability?

I think philosophically we have conflicting views of what a 'good life' looks like.

I certainly have been depressed before, but maybe it was because I was a male (didn't want to feel inferior or weak, who knows) or eventually reached my current state of "If I die at any second, I don't really care" that I never reached out for help because I eventually dropped feelings and adopted a more rational/analysis based thinking process.

Maybe cause I'm a traditionalist, but I don't see a problem with how China sees education. You can say they are narcissists and are trying to turn their children into one, or whatever you wish to say, but if that's the culture then so be it. Who is it to say that Western culture is correct, and vice versa, who is to say that Eastern culture is correct? You can talk about ethics and morality, but like the majority of things, it's very much relative, with it shaped by the culture in which you reside. We live in a capitalist society, where consumers work for money and use this money to pay for goods and services. So if one wanted to live the best of the consumerist life, one would naturally go into Med or STEM, cause they are the fields that typically pay well (there is also starting your own business, or going into finance), and yeah it does come with prestige in Asian culture, but if that's what they want, go for it, there is nothing wrong with their culture to do that no matter how immoral or unethical it is, cause that's their way of life.

Sure, if you want to go into the field of arts, that's up to you, I don't care what others do and want, cause they don't have anything to do with me. (Don't know how you saw that I look down on arts? I have some hobbies, and one of them is drawing. So now I look down on myself too, cause I'm engaging in something that I supposedly find 'lowly'?)

For the sake of making my stance clear so I can step away from answering that much, or just to further your point that I'm "ignorant":
Sure, I don't see Art in the same light (/being on the same level) as Med, STEM (and Business, Finance, and Commerce (even though I don't really like these fields myself, I understand that they form the workings of the modern world)) cause I do not care for its purposeless nature. You can capture a more true-to-life, realistic representation with a camera. Even though often not put beside the fore-mentioned fields, (probably due to personal interest), I do respect horology for its ability to create timepieces that keep time whether it be a large clock or a watch that fits nicely on your wrist with their intricate workings, and I also respect Acoustic/Sound Engineers (still don't really know their specific title) for their ability to capture and replay recordings (more specifically music) that is close (not perfect, but definitely very much near perfect) to the original source (Hi-Fi basically). From the Hi-Fi part, you can tell I enjoy music, and the effort to capture and play it, but I don't have respect for it, it's merely an "It's cool" (chill), so relatively, I do have more respect for the fields I mentioned in the beginning. Going back to arts, besides realistic/anime/cartoon I can understand, I absolutely hate abstract art and any variants of it, (maybe cause I'm salty I don't have the money like rich people to splurge on art, maybe) but there is absolutely no meaning behind anything in that category of art. Something only has meaning when you give it meaning, and so when people supposedly see "constriction" or "fear" in a black circle or splodge, whatever it is, in reality, it really doesn't mean anything and is a waste of time. It's like scholars adding meaning behind every line of text in somebody's literary work, but in reality, the author would have said that "it means what it reads on the surface" (not always the case, but certainly is a possibility). So overall, YES, f**k arts. (I dislike the field of work and see it as only a hobby)

 

[Auzendriel]

I certainly have been depressed before, but maybe it was because I was a male (didn't want to feel inferior or weak, who knows) or eventually reached my current state of "If I die at any second, I don't really care" that I never reached out for help because I eventually dropped feelings and adopted a more rational/analysis based thinking process.

Maybe cause I'm a traditionalist, but I don't see a problem with how China sees education. You can say they are narcissists and are trying to turn their children into one, or whatever you wish to say, but if that's the culture then so be it. Who is it to say that Western culture is correct, and vice versa, who is to say that Eastern culture is correct? You can talk about ethics and morality, but like the majority of things, it's very much relative, with it shaped by the culture in which you reside. We live in a capitalist society, where consumers work for money and use this money to pay for goods and services. So if one wanted to live the best of the consumerist life, one would naturally go into Med or STEM, cause they are the fields that typically pay well (there is also starting your own business, or going into finance), and yeah it does come with prestige in Asian culture, but if that's what they want, go for it, there is nothing wrong with their culture to do that no matter how immoral or unethical it is, cause that's their way of life.

Sure, if you want to go into the field of arts, that's up to you, I don't care what others do and want, cause they don't have anything to do with me. (Don't know how you saw that I look down on arts? I have some hobbies, and one of them is drawing. So now I look down on myself too, cause I'm engaging in something that I supposedly find 'lowly'?)

For the sake of making my stance clear so I can step away from answering that much, or just to further your point that I'm "ignorant":
Sure, I don't see Art in the same light (/being on the same level) as Med, STEM (and Business, Finance, and Commerce (even though I don't really like these fields myself, I understand that they form the workings of the modern world)) cause I do not care for its purposeless nature. You can capture a more true-to-life, realistic representation with a camera. Even though often not put beside the fore-mentioned fields, (probably due to personal interest), I do respect horology for its ability to create timepieces that keep time whether it be a large clock or a watch that fits nicely on your wrist with their intricate workings, and I also respect Acoustic/Sound Engineers (still don't really know their specific title) for their ability to capture and replay recordings (more specifically music) that is close (not perfect, but definitely very much near perfect) to the original source (Hi-Fi basically). From the Hi-Fi part, you can tell I enjoy music, and the effort to capture and play it, but I don't have respect for it, it's merely an "It's cool" (chill), so relatively, I do have more respect for the fields I mentioned in the beginning. Going back to arts, besides realistic/anime/cartoon I can understand, I absolutely hate abstract art and any variants of it, (maybe cause I'm salty I don't have the money like rich people to splurge on art, maybe) but there is absolutely no meaning behind anything in that category of art. Something only has meaning when you give it meaning, and so when people supposedly see "constriction" or "fear" in a black circle or splodge, whatever it is, in reality, it really doesn't mean anything and is a waste of time. It's like scholars adding meaning behind every line of text in somebody's literary work, but in reality, the author would have said that "it means what it reads on the surface" (not always the case, but certainly is a possibility). So overall, YES, f**k arts. (I dislike the field of work and see it as only a hobby)

Absolutely both cultures can be critiqued. I studied in China for Year 1 in Year 2. You are romanticising the system. You have no fucking idea what it's like to be a six year old kid waking up at 5:30am and sleeping at 11pm because of the sheer amount of homework the school gives. That is not healthy for a child and you need to wake the fuck up. Do I agree that Western curriculum can be made more challenging? Yes, to suit those who need it, but there are so many other factors like teaching quality that you cannot just brush aside and ignore. I honestly feel bad for you because while depressed prior I tried pushing away all feelings. It doesn't work like that. Repressed emotions are problematic and will ultimately come bite you in the back. You cannot just reject emotions because it's basically what makes us human. Even if you do (you really can't), you are ignoring everyone else in your romanticised school system. Just because you 'dont believe in stress' and 'feelings' doesn't mean everyone else has to suffer under the system you think is ideal. Yes. I can absolutely argue ethics and morality. Do I need to explain why certain political agendas are looked down upon? Ethics and morality are studied for a reason. What the fuck do you think will happen to society if we all just did shit like the Gaokao and slaved away like that? What the fuck do you think that well do to an entire society's wellbeing?

Just because we live in a capitalistic society that encourages consumerism doesn't mean the working class cannot choose to reject aspects of it and not pursue the whole bullshit of climbing the corporate ladder. You're also blindly rejecting Western individualism. You think a system will be good for you but you'll fuck everyone else over.

You say you dont know how I saw you looked down at the arts but then you proceed to hypocritically discuss how much less it's worth and how you don't view it in the same light as other pursuits. You failed to takeaway a key point I made, which is instead about academic elitism. I agree with what you said about abstract art but you also proceeded to make such generalising statements about art. If you knew about literary theory you would understand that studying literature isn't about adding meaning for no reason. There are multiple underlying frameworks. Simply 'adding meaning' is absolutely not what scholars do. Yes. You are being ignorant by dismissing shit you do not understand. Because you fail to try to empathise with shit beyond your own experience.

Your narrow worldview of how art is not as worthwhile I cannot really argue against because that's because it's something you don't want to understand and accept as an equal to other pursuits. Art, music, literature define and underpin our society and culture for what it is and will always continue to do so. Just because it's not something you are interested in or admire doesn't mean you should view it as below you. You need to recognise that creativity itself is highly important and should be encouraged and cultivated for further innovation to happen.

Do you want a Brave New World society? Christ.

 

[cyniczny]

For the sake of making my stance clear so I can step away from answering that much, or just to further your point that I'm "ignorant":
Sure, I don't see Art in the same light (/being on the same level) as Med, STEM (and Business, Finance, and Commerce (even though I don't really like these fields myself, I understand that they form the workings of the modern world)) cause I do not care for its purposeless nature. You can capture a more true-to-life, realistic representation with a camera. Even though often not put beside the fore-mentioned fields, (probably due to personal interest), I do respect horology for its ability to create timepieces that keep time whether it be a large clock or a watch that fits nicely on your wrist with their intricate workings, and I also respect Acoustic/Sound Engineers (still don't really know their specific title) for their ability to capture and replay recordings (more specifically music) that is close (not perfect, but definitely very much near perfect) to the original source (Hi-Fi basically). From the Hi-Fi part, you can tell I enjoy music, and the effort to capture and play it, but I don't have respect for it, it's merely an "It's cool" (chill), so relatively, I do have more respect for the fields I mentioned in the beginning. Going back to arts, besides realistic/anime/cartoon I can understand, I absolutely hate abstract art and any variants of it, (maybe cause I'm salty I don't have the money like rich people to splurge on art, maybe) but there is absolutely no meaning behind anything in that category of art. Something only has meaning when you give it meaning, and so when people supposedly see "constriction" or "fear" in a black circle or splodge, whatever it is, in reality, it really doesn't mean anything and is a waste of time. It's like scholars adding meaning behind every line of text in somebody's literary work, but in reality, the author would have said that "it means what it reads on the surface" (not always the case, but certainly is a possibility). So overall, YES, f**k arts. (I dislike the field of work and see it as only a hobby)

I think you're right in saying that 'something only has meaning when you give it meaning'. But that line of argument, which you use to disparage arts, can equally be used to disparage STEM subjects, capitalistic systems, etc. Without societies having created these sorts of systems that prioritise the 'real' over the abstract, as you say, the rules of science, maths, business etc. wouldn't have meaning either. The meaning that is given to science and maths stems from people who have given those concepts names and logical representations - other than that, they would be completely abstract, at least to the human eye.

I don't mean to dismiss views that it is worth it to go into STEM fields, and I also don't want to say that it's bad to dislike arts subjects. However, saying that expressing views of humanity, as many arts subjects do, is "a waste of time", is something that I find relatively ignorant. Personally, I'd prefer not to live in a world constricted purely by the tangible and the logical, and there are plenty of philosophical ideas, which, while they could be viewed as 'useless', are certainly still key human values. Where do we get our ideas of ethics and morality, for example? How do we come to communicate ideas with each other in the first place? If abstract art represents human values, emotions, and other intangible things unique to us, then certainly, I'm all for it.

 

[Nedom]

I'm really not bothered anymore (you can say I'm a wuss or just a sore loser, don't really care, was just trying to argue against you cause discussion, even if slightly agressive, is quite interesting to me)

Anyways, why do you feel the need to force shit down people's throats and ask for validation for what you believe in. Belief is power, yes, if people follow a certain system then it has worth, it has value and can bring about order even if it is shit. People have as much right to hating something as they have to liking something. If people are only allowed to say they like something, and not be able to hate something, then where is the freedom of speech that the western world preaches.

'Simply adding meaning' is not what always occurs, but when an author is dead, and there are no notes to show the meaning of their work, who is to say that any line in their work is definitely pointing in a certain direction other than the surface level or the obvious.

You can say I'm a sheep following the crowd, and yes I would agree, cause as a human person, we dislike change. I prefer order and predictability.

The non-heterosexual (don't know if this term is correct) community which only accounts for a very small percentage of the world, I find it quite frustrating that modern society feels that you have to validate other people's values (being LGBTQ... was known, or still is idk, as gender dysphoria, mental delusion, medical condition, now it is seen as normal). Respect isn't like candy on Halloween, you don't just give it out to people, it's earned. If somebody doesn't respect you for who you are because of your values or your actions, so be it, end of story. If you want their respect, you should change, not ask others to change to conform to you. There's no "You gotta do this, you gotta do that, cause this this this". Just stop. You don't have the right/power to dictate what others are supposed to feel or do.

Going back to depression and whatnot. Just because you 'feel' that emotions are important, doesn't mean it is for everyone. You value it so much but do you understand the nature of feelings. 感情才是这世界最残忍的东西。You both hold on so desparately to these so called human characteristics, but do you understand what is true human nature. For sure music, art etc. are used to pass on information and tradition within one group/ethinity, but that's just one aspect of humans. Do you also understand that people can kill others in order to survive? Before the civilised ways of modern world there were territorial practices (don't do history, not sure if correct term) and people would go to war, even within their own country (just look at China's history, not really one country, but descended from the same moderately recent ancestor). Humans value survival, and they are also greedy, with them willing to kill others to attain what they want (with history being a testament to this fact). Don't go off saying you want to be human and not understand that humans aren't all that great. We kill animals for our own benefit, and mass reproduce them to eat them. If you eat meat, do you understand how your meat got there? Have you ever looked your food in the eye and plunged a knife into them? Maybe not a cow, cause it's not that easy to acess them in Australia, but how about a chicken or duck. Have you caught a fresh animal and put it in boiling water to kill it and then remove its feathers before cooking it? Stop being oblivious of what being human can encompass.

 

[Nedom]

It's not all flowers and daises, while you are here contemplating about art there are people on the street, homeless and such ... . Engineering or medicine, or what not may not impact the people on the streets (either way, they get help or not blah blah blah..., they will probably die, as art or societal advancements aren't gonna help), but is certainly an effort to better human life (life built around the current constructs of the world) such as inventing medicine unavailable for medical conditions that don't have any, or designing structures in Japan that are better able to handle earthquakes or tsunamis , etc.. Sure happiness is important for many, but quality of life in other aspects are just as important if not more important, especially when there are still too many other problems to worry about other than some splodge on a canvas that you can't stop thinking "how deep it is".

 

[carrotsss]

If a student is mature (some may say otherwise)

Kids aren't mature

 

[d1zzyohs]

feel like i'm reading the manifesto of my asian father hahahaha. let's just let kids kill themselves because we compare our high school exams to hyper-competitive nations.

Definetely agree that the sciences in HSC is a snooze. We should be teaching calculus based for physics 10000000%.

I think some people in this thread generally lack humanity and empathy, and seem to be fine with kids killing themselves over an exam. "University rankings are bullshit", and yet, so many chinese students come here to study.

I'm genuinely appalled by the complete lack of foresight in some of you. I came to this country so my entire life wouldn't be decided on a report card, and so that I wouldn't spend 12 hours every day at cram schools. This education system which breeds in China and Korea are simply manifestations of a growing, materialistic and hyper-capitalistic mindset. (Before you say China is communist... please read up.) Kids can live a good, meaningful fruitful life if they get a 30 atar, or a 99.95 atar, because our entire societal structure isn't dependent on our exams.

on another note... early offers need to go.

 

[Auzendriel]

feel like i'm reading the manifesto of my asian father hahahaha. let's just let kids kill themselves because we compare our high school exams to hyper-competitive nations.

Definetely agree that the sciences in HSC is a snooze. We should be teaching calculus based for physics 10000000%.

I think some people in this thread generally lack humanity and empathy, and seem to be fine with kids killing themselves over an exam. "University rankings are bullshit", and yet, so many chinese students come here to study.

I'm genuinely appalled by the complete lack of foresight in some of you. I came to this country so my entire life wouldn't be decided on a report card, and so that I wouldn't spend 12 hours every day at cram schools. This education system which breeds in China and Korea are simply manifestations of a growing, materialistic and hyper-capitalistic mindset. (Before you say China is communist... please read up.) Kids can live a good, meaningful fruitful life if they get a 30 atar, or a 99.95 atar, because our entire societal structure isn't dependent on our exams.

on another note... early offers need to go.

Yes. My parents put in immense effort to bring me to Australia so that I can avoid the educational pressure in China. Even if you don't get an ATAR here you still have a chance to live a decent life and make your way up, and that is what is good about Australia. TAFE is not the end of the world as some people like to think and you can end up just as successful as uni peers. I've met enough people to understand that.

That shit in China is not okay. Young people committing suicide is not okay. Shitty mental health overall is not okay. End of discussion.

 

[tywebb]

As well as the 15 comments after the article, the Sydney Morning Herald has also published the following letter to the editor today:

"As a maths teacher with more than 40 years’ experience I support the comments by Scott Lankshear with regard to the recent Mathematics Extension 1 paper (“HSC maths exam gets an F for failing our students”, November 2). Capable students leaving the exam in tears feeling depressed because they were unable to reveal their abilities due to the style and difficulty of the paper is not what education should be about. A serious rethink by the examiners is needed to ensure we continue to have diligent and capable students attempting the harder levels and not a further reduction in the numbers of candidates." - Patrick FitzGerald, Young

 

[notme123]

now that ive thought more about it, the article does bring up a lot of good points, but this issue is very structural and cannot be fixed overnight. i sent this article to someone who sat this exam and is exceptional at maths, and they said its not a matter of the mark you get for this test, its more a confidence issue.

I think people are a lot harsher on themselves for maths because for years, several people get 100%, while in other subjects like english and humanities, no one gets 100% raw, the highest will always be around 98% which aligns to 99 or sometimes 100. so i think there is a perfectionism complex surrounding hsc maths, but that could be due to the objective nature of maths itself.

if you really want to make extension more acessible, introduce concepts like calculus in earlier years without expecting students to master it in in two years. instead of teaching y = mx+b in year 7, teach f(x) = mx+b, so functions are introduced earlier and can lead to faster development. if this were the case, hsc maths would expand for new topics however i dont think confidence would be such an issue. the questions students do in year 9 and 10 do not require as much working as later years, so fostering that gradual development of more complex problem solving over time is another way to fix the issue.

edit: a bit more on the younger years, correct me if I'm wrong but i think students in year 7 now spend a topic on roman numerals? like are you effing kidding me, this is why their algebra is so crap