Immigrants and the Australian Identity (2 Viewers)

[Comrade nathan]

The current trend in the progressive ideologies when it comes to indigenous people is to call them either "First Peoples", "First Nation Peoples", "First World Peoples". So the Aboriginal people are the First Nations Peoples of Australia. The American Indians are the First Nations Peoples of America etc.

To the first question, im not that pretentious to worry about if im a "Aussie".

 

[katie_tully]

am not sure why u are attacking muslims- i never mentioned in this thread anything regarding muslims

most of the bushrangers did exactly that. dont take me literally, but they did abuse aboriginals - and if u say that was considerate ok in those times - well i think ur insane, cos they are humans just like us no different. Saying 'some people of a race/religion hate our country' is negative, there will always be people who hate someone else or something else. go to any country and people are there who hate other countries, the countries they live in etc. If you can hate something, then how can we compare? the world isnt a lovely place? where everyone loves each - get too reality.

I dont how strong Australia was - lol with less 20million ppl, and using primarily british resources....and u can show strength by other means rather going to fight war on behalf of another country. A gud example is in sport- sport shows strength.

but i am being negative - for some reason i am stuck in negative mood, i dont like it, cos australia is such a positive place to be in .

Where did I attack Muslims? I didn't.
I merely asked you to state instances where Australian bushrangers "hunted" aboriginals, or abos as you so eloquently put it. You can't. Do you know why that is? Because Bushrangers were not interested in "hunting aboriginals". Infact if you knew anything at all, you'd know that many Bushrangers relied on Aboriginal tribes to hide them when they were wanted by police. Many Bushrangers had more respect for Aboriginals than they had for the law that was hunting them.
Again I ask you to please refer to specific bushrangers that hunted Aboriginals.

You aren't making sense. So what if sayin some people hate Australia is negative. IT IS A FACT. Are we to ignore this fact purely because it is a "negative" comment? The concept of hating Australia is negative, yet we're supposed to ignore it? Sorry, if you're easily offended by such statements, I suggest you put your head back in the sand.

World War One started in 1914. Federation was only in 1901. We had been governing ourselves for less than 13 years. The ties to Britain were very strong, however young Australian men wanted to show Britain and the world that they were strong. Nobody gives a shit whether you think them going to war was a good idea. Essentially they still went for Mother and Country. They went to defend Australia. They were willing to die for their country, to ensure we could enjoy the freedom we have now.
Sport? What the crap? What was that going to prove in 1914? We were already kicking British arse in Cricket and Rugby.

I suggest you read up on your Australian history.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Not true. Nearly all the major writers in the the major languages have been translated. Incidentally Japan is the country where Shakespeare is most performed. For that matter Eastern philosophy has influenced heaps of western authors. But the source of nearly all that philosophy was non-muslim cultures ie Hindu, Chinese, Japanese. It's not the case that there is some great treasure trove of Muslim philosophy/scientific discoveries that has been produced over the last 500 years that is only known of in Muslim countries.

Dude, Shakespeare isn't philosophy or scientific discoveries. I was talking about literature. How many Arabic speaking, well, Arabs, do you suppose have read Austen compared to Al-Kwhatever, and the same thing for us.

 

[katie_tully]

i guess so, but the argument against that is the british couldnt understand that form of 'ownership'. ideally its poms fault (it almost always is - they fucked the entire world). but yeah its makes little difference now.

Explain to me why it is fine for you to speak with such disrespect towards Britain, but I cannot make gross generalisations about Islam?

Aha. Britain fucked the world. Okay.
The Japanese have a great appreciation for the contribution by the British.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18036&styleid=26

Did Britain fuck the world because of its extensive exploration? Did it fuck the world with its literature? Depending on how you look at it, if it weren't for the Tudor reign, Britain would have been a predominantly Catholic nation and I believe it would have been in the Middle Ages for a lot longer if it weren't for the severed ties.
Yes Britain did some horrible things in the name of Queen and Country. The massacre of the Irish under Cornwall, massacres of Scottish and Welsh. But it was also a nation of rapid growth.
But you're refering to Britain as though it is the only nation that has ever done such things? Spain? Italy? Japan! These are just some nations that can be accused of 'fucking' the world under your great thought processes.

Once again I suggest you read a little more extensively.

 

[erawamai]

Well said Katie..The problems of political correctness have been a major contributing factor to the denial of Australian history/culture and hence a blurring of what actually is the "Australian Identity".

You will find that it is most offensive to people who are born here but happen to be not of pure white skin to excluded from 'Australian' culture because those people who rally against political correctness would prefer to define Australian culture by race.

A great proprotion of the Australian population accepts the implictly racist idea that you cannot be fully Australian unless you are white. That somehow baseline 'Australian' culture is 'anglo' or white.

I can never be 'Australian' in day to day language because I'm not totally white (for the record I'm an European/Asian mix) even though I was born here, played cricket here, played tennis here, went to school here, don't speak any other languages, go to uni here (doing an Australian law degree and an arts degree in Australian history and Australian political institutions). I also speak with a really broad Australian accent.

The opportunity for the individual to derive a life/future, from virtually nothing. The persistance and drive to better not only yourself, but the situation for the generations to come. Instead of recogising assests such as these, we're continually pandering to the voices of the minorities and their plight to erode what was once a proud passionate nation. How does a newly arrived immigrant adopt any form of Australian Identity, or have the desire to do so, if the media and the like purport it to be some kind of evil...

You can't tell me that certain parts of the population do not resent immigrant groups that who DO take up the road to betterment by opening businesses and generally being oh so commercial. Making their kids 'better' by forcing them to do well at school etc etc. The whole idea of people taking it upon their individual initiative to do better for themselves is something which many Australians resent. Tall poppy symdrome anyone, I thought we were famous for it?

I mean John Symond is a self made millionaire (of Aussie Homeloans fame) but people still refer to him as a 'wog'. The local council instructed him not to build a 'wog palace' for his new home. The man is an Australian who has beneficially contributed so much to the Australian community and the economy and mainsteam Australia has the indignity to exclude him and call him a wog. Does he care? Probably not, however it still doesn't make it right.

 

[katie_tully]

Nobody with half a brain wants to define Australian culture by race.
I honestly believe that if you're willing to adhere to basic values, and if you don't hold Australia in contempt, you will be accepted by the majority of the population.
There are of course exceptions on both sides though.
I know where I am, there are many shops opening run by people who do not have a caucasion appearance. Infact the Turkish, Thai and Chinese resturants at the most popular in the town. I worked in the Turkish one for a while, and a heap of people that came in were always telling the boss how glad they are, that they no longer have to travel to Sydney for foreign cuisine.

Certain parts of the population do resent immigrant groups. Some may only resent those that refuse to adhere to what it means to be Australian. But along those lines, I know the majority of Australians would not tolerate white neo nazis.

 

[katie_tully]

You can't tell me that certain parts of the population do not resent immigrant groups that who DO take up the road to betterment by opening businesses and generally being oh so commercial. Making their kids 'better' by forcing them to do well at school.

Yah. I also think though, these are the same people who blame everybody else for their failure at life. I wouldn't think that these people represent the view of the average Australian.
The average useless bogan maybe. Mainly because many 5th, 6th generations of Australians have had everything given to them so they've had no desire to work or better themselves.
Immigrants have come from nothing to Australia to build a life for themselves. They have drive and ambition, and I think thats what the resentful Australians are jealous of.

 

[Kulazzi]

ur lucky, i can barely speak my mother tongue, i can understand quite well though.

when my parents first came here 23 years ago, they hardly knew any english. My dad only knew a little but that's it, no-one else could speak english. Because of that, my mum spoke urdu/hindi with us all the time, as well as my dad, as a result, we get some understanding of it (as kids do, you kind decode the language). Yet we still learnt english at pre-school and primary school. That's how we learnt it and then eventually, form talking to teachers etc. my dad got fluent in english (my mum was not that much of a talker then). My grandfather could speak english too, but we spoke urdu/hindi to him, my grandmother could not speak english fluently, because of that we spoke urdu/hindi all the time with her.

I feel though what u eat hasnt got to do whether ur aussie or not, food is food nothing more nothing less.

but each food does signify it's cultural background. So if I eat some curry food in fornt of someone else, they may automatically assume that i have a desi heritage.

Shahrukh-Khan

Now he is an outstanding bollywood actor but unfortunately, not a practicing Muslim

 

[erawamai]

Nobody with half a brain wants to define Australian culture by race.

Are you sure? I can guess that a fair few within the population implicitly feel that way.

There are a few on this forum who can't understand what is wrong with saying Australian culture is truly 'Anglo' Australian culture and that anyone who says otherwise is being politically correct and therefore evil.

I honestly believe that if you're willing to adhere to basic values, and if you don't hold Australia in contempt, you will be accepted by the majority of the population.
There are of course exceptions on both sides though.

I feel Australia but sometimes it is hard to feel proud to be Australia. Like after the Cronulla riots. Proud to be an Australian? Lleyton Hewitt? Proud to be an Australia? Pauline Hanson? etc etc

Certain parts of the population do resent immigrant groups. Some may only resent those that refuse to adhere to what it means to be Australian. But along those lines, I know the majority of Australians would not tolerate white neo nazis.

You would be surprised. John Howard's famous hand thumping speech 'we will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come' which was met by overwhelming appaulse and support within the community most probably because of its implict racialism.

Especially when one of the highest watched shows of the week was Today Tonights special was about 'foreign workers' taking 'Australian jobs'.

Especially when the Cronulla Riots had a few too many white supremacists. Even more worrying when many locals believe their actions (in the name of white Australia!) were justified.

Not to mention the popularity of the Bonda Fide racist Pauline Hanson who in my opinion is actually a nutcase (she actually thinks port Aruthur Massacre is unsolved) gets prime time television on dancing with the stars and happens to find her way into woman weekly every few months.

 

[HotShot]

Explain to me why it is fine for you to speak with such disrespect towards Britain, but I cannot make gross generalisations about Islam?

Aha. Britain fucked the world. Okay.
The Japanese have a great appreciation for the contribution by the British.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18036&styleid=26

Did Britain fuck the world because of its extensive exploration? Did it fuck the world with its literature?

again why attack islam? Disrespect, those british deserve disrespect, if you have gone through and read what they have done the in past, crimes, the troubles etc then maybe you would understand. British literature - oh whoa really gonna save the world? lets watch some movies? u think thats more important slavery, assimilation and to create the ARab- Israelie conflict, the division between India & Pakistan, Ireland...

the troubles they have caused far outwiegh the few geniuses they had. Yeah sure shakespeare was cool? brough some sense into the pommies. but exlporation? more like colonialisation, the british beautiful historic sites all over the world? Britain created division amongst world they created the present Arab-Israeli (now this is how bad they are i am not even blamin the jews for this)
China? dont forget the opium trade that absolutely ruined china! Hong-KONg? oh boy it just goes on? I ask you what did countries like China and India, the middle east to deserve this?

 

[HotShot]

I suggest you read up on your Australian history.

It was compulsory in yr 9 and 10, i passed it but boy was australian history boring? Pig Iron Bob- srs wtf is like whats that chief's name Sitting BUll -lol

perhaps u read others country's history and not just your own? (especially other commonwealth countries) and that way you see how britain has ruined the world. they might have english to these countries, and victorian buildings, but remember india china etc didnt ask for this, and not only did britain continue, it exploited the country's people, ruined their sacred sites and stole their wealth. It led to some great people like Mahatma Ghandi to finally kick the pommies out. But by the damage had been done, ghandi had allowed split and many saw this as a huge mistake and as result a lot indians dont like ghandi for this... all of cause birtain creating hatred all over the world!. and ur saying its a gross generalisation? wtf?

 

[katie_tully]

I won't bother Eram, everything said by white Australians is "implicit racism". Lleyton Hewitt does not represent the Australian people. Lleyton Hewitt is a moron, and thank god the hoardes of New Idea readers are finally getting he hint.

Hot Shot however is a different story.

again why attack islam? Disrespect, those british deserve disrespect, if you have gone through and read what they have done the in past, crimes, the troubles etc then maybe you would understand. British literature - oh whoa really gonna save the world? lets watch some movies? u think thats more important slavery, assimilation and to create the ARab- Israelie conflict, the division between India & Pakistan, Ireland...

the troubles they have caused far outwiegh the few geniuses they had. Yeah sure shakespeare was cool? brough some sense into the pommies. but exlporation? more like colonialisation, the british beautiful historic sites all over the world? Britain created division amongst world they created the present Arab-Israeli (now this is how bad they are i am not even blamin the jews for this)
China? dont forget the opium trade that absolutely ruined china! Hong-KONg? oh boy it just goes on? I ask you what did countries like China and India, the middle east to deserve this?

It was compulsory in yr 9 and 10, i passed it but boy was australian history boring? Pig Iron Bob- srs wtf is like whats that chief's name Sitting BUll -lol

perhaps u read others country's history and not just your own? (especially other commonwealth countries) and that way you see how britain has ruined the world. they might have english to these countries, and victorian buildings, but remember india china etc didnt ask for this, and not only did britain continue, it exploited the country's people, ruined their sacred sites and stole their wealth. It led to some great people like Mahatma Ghandi to finally kick the pommies out. But by the damage had been done, ghandi had allowed split and many saw this as a huge mistake and as result a lot indians dont like ghandi for this... all of cause birtain creating hatred all over the world!. and ur saying its a gross generalisation? wtf?

Dear me. Where to start.

Once again, I did not attack Islam. I asked why it is that you can attack Britain and Western ideology, but I cannot attack Islam. Why is that so? What gives you the right to attack one thing I believe in, but I cannot attack what you believe in? Why such double standards?

What is wrong with Colonisation? It was the norm for many centuries, and everybody did it. The Chinese explored, the Spanish explored, the Dutch and French colonised just like the British. So why attack just the British?

Are you so naive as to think the Middle East has never done anything like Britain? Are you so blind that you honestly believe all injustices against the world were done by the British? You talk of China's opium trade, yet you do not talk of Afghanistan and Iraq's opium trade? Which I must also add, is the largest in the world. (Afghanistan being the largest supplier of opium in the world).
Yet that too is Britains fault?

LOLERCHORTLE. You did 9/10 Australian History? Big fucking deal. So did I, and I'll tell you this. That is not history. That is textbook shit that doesn't represent anything that has happened in this country. You touch brieftly on each world war, on federation, the 60s. So what? It's all there in a nicely illustrated text book, aimed at making basic history digestable for the average moron.

I read extensively on history other than Australian. I have just read a book on the Inquisitors, and I am starting on a book called 1421, the year China discovered the world. I am particularly fond of Romanian history, and I have read extensively on Roman, Egyptian, British and French history. I don't babble on with bullshit I may have picked up in year 9/10 history.
Get a clue.

Hey. Who murdered Ghandi. Was it a British imperialist? No, it was one of his own people. But that is Britains fault too?

 

[erawamai]

everything said by white Australians is "implicit racism".

Only to the extent that it limits Australian indenity to certiain racial groups (re: white) then yes, it is expressly racist.

 

[katie_tully]

We shall agree to disagree then. I'm basing my argument on the reception of foreigners that I have witnessed. I have indeed heard overtly racist comments, and yet I have seen an overwhelming acceptance of foreigners by anglo australians. I cannot comment on everybody, but surely my bubble is not the only bubble that has the same reception.

 

[erawamai]

We shall agree to disagree then. I'm basing my argument on the reception of foreigners that I have witnessed. I have indeed heard overtly racist comments, and yet I have seen an overwhelming acceptance of foreigners by anglo australians. I cannot comment on everybody, but surely my bubble is not the only bubble that has the same reception.

All cultures are racist, including the immigrant groups. However it seems odd that those who believe, subconsciously or otherwise, in the supremacy of the white race, would lower themselves to combating racist (backward?) cultures with the same brand of racism.

Of course it brings us to the argument of who did what first? Where the immigrants racist first or are the anglos racist first? Do all immigrants come to Australia seeking to do their best to integrate? Will Anglo Australians accept immigrants regardless of whether they do their best to blend?

 

[katie_tully]

Not all immigrants come to Australia, seeking to do their best to integrate. Of course there will be some who don't. I feel that is what the problem is though. Governments during the 80s were too P.C to take a tough stance on it, so they (the offenders) believed they could get away with it, as did their children. You cannot deport people born here, but it makes you wonder what kind of state we're in if Australian born people want to destroy our way of life.

Will anglo Australian's accept immigrants regardless of whether they do their best to blend?
Of course not all of them will, but why do you think that this is the case for all anglo Australians? Anglo Australians with strong ties to this country don't want to see it go to ruin, so of course there will be people who are wary of other races, especially those whose mother countries are known for their strict religious codes.

I don't want to walk down the street and be called a fucking skip, as though being Australian is something to be ashamed of. Multiculturalism is a sham, and if you think we're all going to live harmoniously in some bubble, with separate cultures and separate value systems then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[erawamai]

I don't want to walk down the street and be called a fucking skip, as though being Australian is something to be ashamed of. Multiculturalism is a sham, and if you think we're all going to live harmoniously in some bubble, with separate cultures and separate value systems then you're sadly mistaken.

Whats the alternative to multiculturalism? Monoculturalism? Regardless of what model is used people will never really live harmoniously.

Those who suggest that all the woes of society would somehow be solved if we decided to do away with multiculturalism most probably don't have a very good grasp of history (cos you know mono racial and cultural societies functioned perfectly). Regardless, humans seem to be very good at not living harmoniously even if they all belong to the same race or culture. Humans will invent ways to differentiate themselves from others.

Sameness breeds contempt just as much as difference. No one wants to be just like their fellow man. They want to be better than their fellow man. As such humans, by our very nature, seek to differentiate ourselves from our fellow humans. If this wasn't the case there would be no incentive to do anything. In a society of sameness we will invent ways to distinguish ourselves. IF we were all the same race or culture in society I'm sure we would find a way to distinguish ourselves from or fellow man or woman.

I would hate live in a nation that prescribes a culture that must be followed. It's a free country, you can do whatever the hell you want, dress anyway you like do whatever you like...just as long as it doesn't harm other people. Basic principles of liberalism which I hope our political system still believes in.

The reason why multiculturalism has a few bumps and splutters is because people don't understand it. Many don't seem to understand that multiculturalism core is adherence to a baseline culture. This baseline culture is, at its must basic, not to break the law and to tolerate and accept that other people have different outlooks to life. Perhaps even to embrace eachothers cultural practices to an extent.

Multiculturalism falls down when both sides forget about respect. Respect breeds interest in other cultures. Knowledge of other cultures generally (to the open minded) helps people to contextualise their existence...to understand their culture better.

 

[katie_tully]

That's all very well and good iam, however I give you the example of our friend hot-shot.
He holds nothing but contempt for Britain (for some reason), and our very country is founded on law and parliamentary systems introduced by Britain. Indeed our value systems are very, very similar. Yet this person has done nothing but rant and rave about the evil doings of Britain, and countries under the Commonwealth.
I would assume that our baseline culture is much similar to that of the British model, and if he holds such contempt for Britain, how can he honestly say he has respect for OUR baseline culture?
And this is what Australian's are so fed up with! It's not wanting to eat the cuisine of your home nation, or celebrate certain festivals. It is this blatant disrespect for what we, and the founders of this nation hold dear.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What's so bad about HotShot having such a view tho? I don't think it's our place to say 'that view is wrong - goodbye!', it might turn out to be a correct one. We should focus on educating people how to learn better so that perhaps they might analyse the situation and come to a conclusion that has less logical errors.

 

[banco55]

Whats the alternative to multiculturalism? Monoculturalism? Regardless of what model is used people will never really live harmoniously.

Those who suggest that all the woes of society would somehow be solved if we decided to do away with multiculturalism most probably don't have a very good grasp of history (cos you know mono racial and cultural societies functioned perfectly). Regardless, humans seem to be very good at not living harmoniously even if they all belong to the same race or culture. Humans will invent ways to differentiate themselves from others.

Sameness breeds contempt just as much as difference. No one wants to be just like their fellow man. They want to be better than their fellow man. As such humans, by our very nature, seek to differentiate ourselves from our fellow humans. If this wasn't the case there would be no incentive to do anything. In a society of sameness we will invent ways to distinguish ourselves. IF we were all the same race or culture in society I'm sure we would find a way to distinguish ourselves from or fellow man or woman.

I would hate live in a nation that prescribes a culture that must be followed. It's a free country, you can do whatever the hell you want, dress anyway you like do whatever you like...just as long as it doesn't harm other people. Basic principles of liberalism which I hope our political system still believes in.

The reason why multiculturalism has a few bumps and splutters is because people don't understand it. Many don't seem to understand that multiculturalism core is adherence to a baseline culture. This baseline culture is, at its must basic, not to break the law and to tolerate and accept that other people have different outlooks to life. Perhaps even to embrace eachothers cultural practices to an extent.

Multiculturalism falls down when both sides forget about respect. Respect breeds interest in other cultures. Knowledge of other cultures generally (to the open minded) helps people to contextualise their existence...to understand their culture better.

Their are lots of monocultural states that are very vibrant and successful. Japan and Korea for example and when the European states were at their peak they were relatively monocultural. Mass immigration isn't compulsory. What would we would have lost by refusing to allow the lebanese muslims to immigrate during the civil war period? Yet on the other hand they've caused quite a few problems.