internally = better spread out or alot of ppl sitting on same rank? (1 Viewer)

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hey guys,
^. is it better to have many people in a cohort sit on the same rank (for the entire cohort), or if everyone was spread out? (as in no more than 2 people sitting on the same rank)

and if alot of people r sitting on the same rank, how does ur internal marks work? would it be like if there's a class of 7 people, and the external marks go like this
98
97
96
95
94
93
92

and internally, there r 3 people sitting on rank 2
would rank 1 get 98, but wb the 3 people sitting on rank 2? r they all going to get 97? cuz if rank 1 get 98, and all 3 ppl on rank 2 get 97, would rank 5 get 96 or 94? what happens to the very bottom mark...? or is it something like rank 2 gets an avg, so 97 +96+95?/3
?


tl;dr


soz if that wasnt clear. but from my understanding, rank 1 gets the top mark, and consequent ranks get consequent, corresponding marks. but if there was more than 1 person on a rank, then that stuffs up that order. so how are internal mark distributions calculated if you have more than 1 person sitting on a rank?

thnx
 
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hey guys,
^. is it better to have many people in a cohort sit on the same rank (for the entire cohort), or if everyone was spread out? (as in no more than 2 people sitting on the same rank)

and if alot of people r sitting on the same rank, how does ur internal marks work? would it be like if there's a class of 7 people, and the external marks go like this
98
97
96
95
94
93
92

and internally, there r 3 people sitting on rank 2
would rank 1 get 98, but wb the 3 people sitting on rank 2? r they all going to get 97? cuz if rank 1 get 98, and all 3 ppl on rank 2 get 97, would rank 5 get 96 or 94? what happens to the very bottom mark...? or is it something like rank 2 gets an avg, so 97 +96+95?/3
?


tl;dr


soz if that wasnt clear. but from my understanding, rank 1 gets the top mark, and consequent ranks get consequent, corresponding marks. but if there was more than 1 person on a rank, then that stuffs up that order. so how are internal mark distributions calculated if you have more than 1 person sitting on a rank?

thnx
1st will get 98
the three 2nd places get 97
skip the marks that don't get used
last ranked would get lowest mark
I don't think the spread between internals really matter, it's just the gaps in the external marks
 

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1st will get 98
the three 2nd places get 97
skip the marks that don't get used
last ranked would get lowest mark
I don't think the spread between internals really matter, it's just the gaps in the external marks
so 3rd gets 94?

quick q then, wats the thing with the bell curve then? cuz apparently the lowest mark in the cohort affects everyone else's mark except rank 1
but like if they skip the marks then it really isn't affecting everyone except the lowest ranked person
 

D94

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hey guys,
^. is it better to have many people in a cohort sit on the same rank (for the entire cohort), or if everyone was spread out? (as in no more than 2 people sitting on the same rank)

and if alot of people r sitting on the same rank, how does ur internal marks work? would it be like if there's a class of 7 people, and the external marks go like this
98
97
96
95
94
93
92

and internally, there r 3 people sitting on rank 2
would rank 1 get 98, but wb the 3 people sitting on rank 2? r they all going to get 97? cuz if rank 1 get 98, and all 3 ppl on rank 2 get 97, would rank 5 get 96 or 94? what happens to the very bottom mark...? or is it something like rank 2 gets an avg, so 97 +96+95?/3
?


tl;dr


soz if that wasnt clear. but from my understanding, rank 1 gets the top mark, and consequent ranks get consequent, corresponding marks. but if there was more than 1 person on a rank, then that stuffs up that order. so how are internal mark distributions calculated if you have more than 1 person sitting on a rank?

thnx

Firstly, your understanding of how internal marks are calculated is wrong, so most of what you are asking is meaningless.

During the year, you obtain marks through assessments, and at the end of the year, there is some mark associated with your name and your peers will also have a certain mark. This is reflective of your achievements at school. Subsequently, when ordered, the ordering becomes of your rank (obviously). But how exactly is a rank a useful piece of information when it doesn't take into account the individual performance of each student? A rank is simply a number that represents your position amongst your peers. But does coming 20th really mean you're that far away from first, in terms of individual skill and achievement? Or does coming 3rd really mean you're that close to first, in terms of individual skill and achievement? Well the answer is no in both cases - put that thought aside for a moment.

You and your peers will have a unique set of marks distribution. This is your achievement based on the assessments typically designed by your school. But BOSTES needs to fairly compare your assessments to the assessments designed by other schools. We can't simply say that a 90% at your school is the same as a 90% at the school I went to. To fairly compare these marks, BOSTES must have some control assessment to compare students. It should be clear that the only assessment that all students complete, who do the same subject, is indeed the Higher School Certificate exams.

So how does BOSTES use this to fairly compare students? They do so by a process called moderation. Now this is where the marks distribution is important, and coming back to individual skill and achievement. For example, if a set of school marks were 90, 80, 78, 75, 70 and 65, that is a very different scenario to if the set of school marks were 90, 89, 87, 86, 80 and 65. In the first set, marks were clustered towards the middle-end. In the second set, marks were clustered towards the front. It is this distribution that needs to be taken into account when BOSTES moderates or adjusts these marks, in order to produce your internal mark or assessment mark.

Now at that stage, you would have already sat your HSC exams. You and your peers would have achieved some sort of mark, and anyone could have achieved any mark, high or low, doesn't matter if you were first in school or last in school. The HSC exams are completely separate to your school achievements. But what BOSTES does during moderation is they pin the highest exam mark to the student who came first in school, and the they pin the lowest exam mark to the student who came last in school, and these then become their internal mark or assessment mark.

So what happens with the marks in between? They are moderated in a way that reflects your school marks distribution. Let's say the exam marks are between 98 and 92, as you have suggested. First is awarded with 98 for their assessment mark, and last is awarded 92 for their assessment mark. So in both sets of marks that I suggested above, the 90 gets moderated up to 98, and the 65 gets moderated up to 92. But, in the first set, since marks are clustered towards the end, that means the moderated marks will be clustered towards the 92 end. This could possibly be say 98, 94, 94, 94, 93 and 92. In the second set, since marks are clustered towards the front, the moderated marks could be 98, 97, 97, 97, 96 and 92. Since the range of exam marks are so close, it's certain that students, even with differing school marks, will be awarded the same internal mark.

Note that factors such as the mean or average of the marks, as well as exactly how they are distributed are taken into account - meaning, when pinning the highest and lowest exam marks, all other marks do not matter, but those marks are important when finding the average because the average of your school marks must be adjusted (i.e. during moderation - going from school marks to moderated assessment marks) to match the average of the exam marks. What matters is that if your marks, not rank, but your marks in school are closer to first than they are to last, then your moderated assessment mark or internal mark will be moderated closer to first.

It is paramount that you understand that marks are not simply given out based on your rank unless you are first or last. 2nd in school does not get the 2nd highest exam mark. 10th in school does not get the 10th highest exam mark. This school rank-exam mark matching does not happen. This notion of matching exam marks to ranks does not occur!

So in your example, those who are on the same rank will get the same internal mark, but that mark is reflective of how close or far they are from first. They do not simply get 97, but they all do get the same mark. If they are far away from first in school, despite being second, their internal mark will reflect that.

There is no tl;dr version to this, because you simply do not understand how it works, and a dumbed down version to an already dumbed down version is not useful. All information can be found on the BOSTES website, so there is no excuse for any student to not know how it works: http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc-results/moderation.html
 

D94

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1st will get 98
the three 2nd places get 97
skip the marks that don't get used
last ranked would get lowest mark
I don't think the spread between internals really matter, it's just the gaps in the external marks
No, you've got this the other way around, and also, there is no skipping of marks (but there's no point talking about this because the premise is wrong, as described above).

The spread of external marks and the gaps between internal marks are the most important factors.
 
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No, you've got this the other way around, and also, there is no skipping of marks (but there's no point talking about this because the premise is wrong, as described above).

The spread of external marks and the gaps between internal marks are the most important factors.
Makes more sense with your previous post
thanks for the clarification : D
 

karan96

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can i just ask, say for example in a certain subject, i'm ranking first. But internally, i'm far ahead of the person ranked 2 (in terms of how school assessments have gone.) Is this internal gap between first and second irrelevant ie. does only your rank that gets sent to BOSTES matter, no matter how close or how far ahead you are from 2nd?
 

karan96

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more simply put, if i'm ranking first with a large margin between 2nd, will this improve my overall internal/external result? Or would it be the exact same as ranking first with a close margin between second?
 

cem

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Only marks are sent to the BOSTES and whole numbers at that. The marks are then used to determine ranks but the school sends in marks. That way BOSTES has the mark AND the gaps between the marks which are very important.
 

karan96

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wait, BOSTES gets marks? I thought they only got ranks? In your case, me ranking first in a subject by a big margin is actually better than ranking first with a small margin, or is the margin irrelevant as long as i'm first?
 

cem

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Yes BOSTES gets marks only not ranks. The ranks are determined from the marks sent in from the schools.
 

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Firstly, your understanding of how internal marks are calculated is wrong, so most of what you are asking is meaningless.

During the year, you obtain marks through assessments, and at the end of the year, there is some mark associated with your name and your peers will also have a certain mark. This is reflective of your achievements at school. Subsequently, when ordered, the ordering becomes of your rank (obviously). But how exactly is a rank a useful piece of information when it doesn't take into account the individual performance of each student? A rank is simply a number that represents your position amongst your peers. But does coming 20th really mean you're that far away from first, in terms of individual skill and achievement? Or does coming 3rd really mean you're that close to first, in terms of individual skill and achievement? Well the answer is no in both cases - put that thought aside for a moment.

You and your peers will have a unique set of marks distribution. This is your achievement based on the assessments typically designed by your school. But BOSTES needs to fairly compare your assessments to the assessments designed by other schools. We can't simply say that a 90% at your school is the same as a 90% at the school I went to. To fairly compare these marks, BOSTES must have some control assessment to compare students. It should be clear that the only assessment that all students complete, who do the same subject, is indeed the Higher School Certificate exams.

So how does BOSTES use this to fairly compare students? They do so by a process called moderation. Now this is where the marks distribution is important, and coming back to individual skill and achievement. For example, if a set of school marks were 90, 80, 78, 75, 70 and 65, that is a very different scenario to if the set of school marks were 90, 89, 87, 86, 80 and 65. In the first set, marks were clustered towards the middle-end. In the second set, marks were clustered towards the front. It is this distribution that needs to be taken into account when BOSTES moderates or adjusts these marks, in order to produce your internal mark or assessment mark.

Now at that stage, you would have already sat your HSC exams. You and your peers would have achieved some sort of mark, and anyone could have achieved any mark, high or low, doesn't matter if you were first in school or last in school. The HSC exams are completely separate to your school achievements. But what BOSTES does during moderation is they pin the highest exam mark to the student who came first in school, and the they pin the lowest exam mark to the student who came last in school, and these then become their internal mark or assessment mark.

So what happens with the marks in between? They are moderated in a way that reflects your school marks distribution. Let's say the exam marks are between 98 and 92, as you have suggested. First is awarded with 98 for their assessment mark, and last is awarded 92 for their assessment mark. So in both sets of marks that I suggested above, the 90 gets moderated up to 98, and the 65 gets moderated up to 92. But, in the first set, since marks are clustered towards the end, that means the moderated marks will be clustered towards the 92 end. This could possibly be say 98, 94, 94, 94, 93 and 92. In the second set, since marks are clustered towards the front, the moderated marks could be 98, 97, 97, 97, 96 and 92. Since the range of exam marks are so close, it's certain that students, even with differing school marks, will be awarded the same internal mark.

Note that factors such as the mean or average of the marks, as well as exactly how they are distributed are taken into account - meaning, when pinning the highest and lowest exam marks, all other marks do not matter, but those marks are important when finding the average because the average of your school marks must be adjusted (i.e. during moderation - going from school marks to moderated assessment marks) to match the average of the exam marks. What matters is that if your marks, not rank, but your marks in school are closer to first than they are to last, then your moderated assessment mark or internal mark will be moderated closer to first.

It is paramount that you understand that marks are not simply given out based on your rank unless you are first or last. 2nd in school does not get the 2nd highest exam mark. 10th in school does not get the 10th highest exam mark. This school rank-exam mark matching does not happen. This notion of matching exam marks to ranks does not occur!

So in your example, those who are on the same rank will get the same internal mark, but that mark is reflective of how close or far they are from first. They do not simply get 97, but they all do get the same mark. If they are far away from first in school, despite being second, their internal mark will reflect that.

There is no tl;dr version to this, because you simply do not understand how it works, and a dumbed down version to an already dumbed down version is not useful. All information can be found on the BOSTES website, so there is no excuse for any student to not know how it works: http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc-results/moderation.html
thnx
this just made my life more complicated. le sigh.
 

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