Israel and Palestine (3 Viewers)

[JayB]

just questioning a definition political exile has used in the past, calling the USSR a fascist zionist state, and israel one by definition. i was merely pointing out an incongruity in an argument pertaining to the nature of both the government (past and roesent) of Russia who were the sovereigns of the USSR, and israel, which for the majority of its existance for the first quater of her life was run by socialists. fascism is such an ugly term to be assosciated with. not that socialism is any better.

 

[Jordan.J]

I think he was referring to the actions of the state, they resembled a fascism. But you're right, they were still considered communists

 

[PoliticalExile]

just questioning a definition political exile has used in the past, calling the USSR a fascist zionist state, and israel one by definition. i was merely pointing out an incongruity in an argument pertaining to the nature of both the government (past and roesent) of Russia who were the sovereigns of the USSR, and israel, which for the majority of its existance for the first quater of her life was run by socialists. fascism is such an ugly term to be assosciated with. not that socialism is any better.

In ideological terms:

Fascism is loss of individual rights for a center power and thus considered similar to the classic Monarchy, which is the usual reference for the Right.

Communism is the gain of individual rights and a move away from central power, it is usually the reference for the Left.
​

Socialism can be Fascist or Communist.

We really have to judge the USSR on what we know about it's legal foundation which was a representative democracy with tiers of representation. In other words the USSR Constitution was not structured to have direct from the individual elections, it was very similar to the late Czarist system of having electoral bodies and representatives with different actual levels of representation.

That is the actual USSR law and the basic theories of left and right.

However, in fact, in actual practice, the leaders of the USSR, such as Lenin, made public speeches calling for terrorism of the public in general, what could be termed a form of anarchy of the state. A terrorist rule of the supreme dictator Lenin who violated all the USSR constitution laws to enact a reign of very centralized almost fascist Monarchial system of terror.


In complete evaluation, the USSR was a Fascist Anarchy.

What makes this so damaging to the ethics of Israel, is that it was founded, advocated, supported, back with military hardware, by the biggest Fascist State of the 20th cent.

Fascism is central power. Lenin set up the system of the Gulags which killed 21 million Caucasians before WW II even started. When we look at Lenin, Stalin or Kaganovich, we see a very centralized (Fascist) form of power.


Israel was first legally recognized by the most fascist nation (Lenin, Stalin, Kaganovich) series of absolute dictators of the 20th century.

What makes a Fascist Dictator bigger than another fascist dictator? We must determine how much control he had. How many people around him and of the public, the individuals we were talking of up above, did he kill in order to stay in power?

Lenin of the USSR set up the Gulags concentration camps which killed 21 million before 1940.
Hitler of Germany set up the Holocaust concentration camps killed 6 million before 1945.

The USSR is therefore more Fascist than Germany was, if we define fascism as killing off the individuals of your nation to assume absolute centralized dictatorial power.

Israel was advocated, recognized and supported by a nation, the USSR, that was by definintion, three times as fascist as Nazi Germany.


What does this mean for Israel?

It means the world knows who set up Israel and what those people were like. I means that Israel has to stop with it's gulags and concentration camps of the Palestinians.

It means Humanity is watching and Israel has to clean up it's act.

 

[JayB]

israel's gulags and concentration camps? where? point just one out on a map. i find your comparison of israel to the ussr and to nazi germany sickening. just because a nation was advocated by what you term a fascist state doesnt make it one.

besides, im really wondering where you get this strange idea that the USSR was a zionist state, or supported the jews in prety much any way. im sure you are aware that the majority of anti-semitism in the world stems from this region at some point. there were zionists in russia, but that is hardly the same thing.

i dont quite accept your interpretation of fascist, communist and socialist, since socialism is a marxist principle, and in my eyes, a left wing ideology, but regardless, i havent seen any proof of israel's "concentration camps".

 

[PoliticalExile]

israel's gulags and concentration camps? where? point just one out on a map. i find your comparison of israel to the ussr and to nazi germany sickening..

...i havent seen any proof of israel's "concentration camps".

The Gaza Strip, Israel Gulag.

8 concentration camps.
http://www.mideastweb.org/refugee_camps2.jpg

The current total registered Palestinian refugee population (2002) is approximately 3.9 million, over a million of whom live in camps

Movement in and out of the Gaza Strip is controlled by Israeli force.
domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/6cc925d574f5f96185257061004f9797!OpenDocument

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/updates/invasion_of_rafah.htm

The whole Gaza Strip is an Israeli Gulag camp. The people can't get out.
Israel is the same as the Zionist USSR. with it's Gulga concentration camps.

Israel was founded by the Zionist USSR which was a fascist dictatorship and killed 21 million of it's own people, more than Nazi Germany did.

____________________________

 

[JayB]

see, a concentration camp is a very different thing form a refugee camp, and your misuse of the term is a barefaced lie. the reason the palestinians are in camps is that firstly, their government sucks arse, and would rather pay the mothers of their nation money to send their kids to blow themselves up instead of spending it to build infrastucture, secondly because they have either instigated or supported countless, pointless wars against the israelis and lost, and thirdly, because the country that was created for them, JORDAN, didnt allow them in, forcing them to live in refuggee camps along its border.

 

[PoliticalExile]

see, a concentration camp is a very different thing form a refugee camp, and your misuse of the term is a barefaced lie.

When the camp is controlled by Israeli military and those inside can't escape, it's termed a concentration camp. An Israeli-built metal fence separates Israel and the Gaza Strip.

Israel is sickening, it was founded by a the most fascist state that committed the most genocide of the 20th cent.

USSR first advocated the State of Israel, by Gromyko, in the UN.
http://community.boredofstudies.org/2793723/post-54.html

USSR first legally recognized (de jure) State of Israel on May 18, 1948
USA legally recognized (de jure) State of Israel on January 31, 1949
http://community.boredofstudies.org/2796265/post-90.html

USSR first accepted the Israeli ambassador on June, 1948
USA accepted the Israeli ambassador on Sept. 1950
http://community.boredofstudies.org/2798646/post-112.html

USSR first supplied Military Aircraft to Israel, May 1948.
USA supplied Military Aircraft of Israel in 1956.
http://community.boredofstudies.org/2798646/post-112.html

Israel Shamir said that Stalin, USSR, was a Zionist:

Israel Shamir

"The Foreign Offices of Moscow and Tel Aviv jointly published two heavy (I know, I carried them) volumes of documents pertaining to this period. It contains secret and confidential letters by Stalin and to Stalin, and provides a full insight
into the Second Lover's Tale.

"Yes, our support of Zionist state is a complete break with the
long-standing Soviet tradition of supporting anti-colonial and
anti-imperialist movements. Yes, this decision of ours will poison relations
with the Arab world. Yes, it will enslave the native people of Palestine.
But it can sway the American Jews to the side of the Soviet Union, and the
American Jews will deliver the US to us" - that was the true reasoning of
Stalin and his men. "

- Israel Shamir

http://www.left.ru/inter/june/shamir2.html

Fascism and right wing Dictatorships are defined by how many of their citizens they have to kill to keep centralized power.

USSR killed 61 million of it's own people to maintain right wing dictatorial control, fascism. Lenin.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

Nazi Germany killed 6 million of it's own people to maintain right wing dictatorial control, fascism. Hitler. The Zionist USSR killed ten times that, 61 million of its own people, in very much the same way Israel is doing it, concentration camps.

Israel is a human rights violator and was created by a State worse than Nazi Germany.

Later on the USSR pretended to be the "friend" of Arab states so as to get the intelligence to supply Israel with for the wars.

For example, the USSr gave Israel the intelligence for the location and status of all the Egyptian airfields for the 1968 war.

Then, after the USSR got Israel on it's feet, it could better support Israel by pretending to help the Arabs.

The old "good cop" and "bad cop" routine, with Zionists in the USSR and USA both supporting Israel and then playing the Arabs for fools.


How else did the Israelis get all the intelligence on the Egyptian airfields for the 1968 war?

 

[JayB]

what zionist USSR, other than mentioning a few names, you havent shown a zionist majority within the govt.

second of all, your only point hence is that a human rights violator supported israel at one time. has it escaped you attention that russia is one of israels largest condemners at this point in time?

by your definition, doesnt the fact that syria, saudi arabia, and indeed iran support HAMAS, when those countries are human rights violators or terrorists? or is that ok for one group, but not for another?

lastly, a concentration camp is designed to process and periodically destroy a people. kinda not happening in gaza, at all. the fence is there not to keep the arabs in gaza, but to keep them out of israel, until such a time as they arent insane and are unwilling to blow themselves up on busses or in cafes. in essence, the only thing keeping the palestinians down, is themselves. ironic really.

and fuck, you disprove your own point, stalin didnt give a fuck about israel, he was using the jews to try and poison the US, "American Jews will deliver the US to us". Shamir says nowhere that stalin was a zionist. the USSR wanted to get rid of all the jews, and found a way to do it that could possibly defeat america. so he went for it.

 

[HotShot]

sometimes you wonder what would have happened had Trotsky had control of Russia.

 

[S1M0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS8URMqFHKY

An interview with Prof. Schleifer on the history of Zionism, Israel and the U.S support of both.

Its a long haul, around 23 mins, but its interesting, beneficial, and its unbiased for once. Just ignore the "turntoislam" on it.

 

[malikins]

I completely agree with Jay-b. It's the palestinians which continually spoil their own chances at becoming accepted in a peaceful israel. It is difficult for even their own government to stop them committing act of terror, and until they do there is no way that israel can do anything to help their situation. It is unfortunate that their camps are in such lousy conditions, but this is not israeli's fault, nor are these "concentration camps". If you want to see one of these i suggest you look at a few photos of Dachau or Auschwitz before you start making ridiculous comparisons. All the Palestinian people have the right to become full israeli citizens if they are willing to stop creating terror. In fact, there are many palestinians in Isreal who are completely involved and respected in Israeli society. As for Jordan, as a fellow Arab state that they actually accepted as EXISTING (unlike Israel) , maybe it should help some of its fellow Arab refugees....

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

lastly, a concentration camp is designed to process and periodically destroy a people. kinda not happening in gaza, at all. the fence is there not to keep the arabs in gaza, but to keep them out of israel, until such a time as they arent insane and are unwilling to blow themselves up on busses or in cafes. in essence, the only thing keeping the palestinians down, is themselves. ironic really.

That's a rather glib interpretation of what's happening.

 

[JayB]

i prefer to think of it as a simple overview of a terrible problem. do you disagree with my perception of the events? or is it just the tone that you have a problem with?

 

[UWS-Uni-Student]

Palestinians as a whole are not terrorists, but there are terrorist elements*, as they have attacked civilians. However the Israelis have also done wrong. This is like most things in life, there is no hero and villain, there are grey areas.


* Assuming one uses the definition of a terrorist as classically defined
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=...l&hs=EI3&q=define:terrorist&btnG=Search&meta=

 

[JayB]

palestinians as a whole are not, but as a majority vote for them. the people get the govt they deserve, and the retributions that come with it. there would have been a worldwide invasion of israel if a jewish equivalent of HAMAS had been voted in.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Palestinians as a whole are not terrorists, but there are terrorist elements, as they have attacked civilians.

That's like, the worst definition ever.

However the Israelis have also done wrong. This is like most things in life, there is no hero and villain, there are grey areas.

I'd say that they've done more wrong...of course, you'd have to read through pages and pages of boring Aryan Beauty posts and other posts like his to get to the bottom of the matter, and that's not something I'm willing to do.

i prefer to think of it as a simple overview of a terrible problem. do you disagree with my perception of the events? or is it just the tone that you have a problem with?

I genuinely agree, I was just saying that it seemed as if you were dismissing a lot of the terrible things that have transpired all because he used the phrase concentration camp. It's like...you were saying he's opinion is totally worthless, which evidently is not the case.

 

[dieburndie]

Re: The History of Israel, Zionism and U.S support by Prof. Schleifer

It's absolutely fucking fantastic you decided to make a new thread about it.
Stop polluting this subforum and kill yourself you faggot.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Re: The History of Israel, Zionism and U.S support by Prof. Schleifer

Somebody loves their politics forum!

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Re: The History of Israel, Zionism and U.S support by Prof. Schleifer

It's absolutely fucking fantastic you decided to make a new thread about it.
Stop polluting this subforum and kill yourself you faggot.

He's actually a Mossad agent sent to pollute the ncap forum like back in 1956 when the Israelis...


...

Palestinians

...

hezbollah

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IDF

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war

...

occupation

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apartheid wall of oppression

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UN

...

zionist crusaders

...

30 paragraphs later

...

So that's why I need to start 3 more threads about it

 

[Indian Princess]

A commander of Palestinian militant group Hamas has been killed during a gun battle with rival faction Fatah in the northern Gaza Strip.
It is the first such fatality since a Saudi-mediated ceasefire between the groups was signed a month ago.

The man was killed in the town of Beit Hanoun after a shoot-out between the two factions.

Each side blamed the other for starting the violence, which shook the town with mortars and rocket-propelled grenades http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6438797.stm

Thanks to safety wall built by Israel these terrorists cannot attack Israel anymore and now they are turning their guns to their own people. Not surprising, they are really blood thirsty savage people as history has proved it all along.