Israel Palestine conflict (5 Viewers)

[totally_screwed]

The first ones to fire rockets were Hamas. If you don't have an air force, then don't fire rockets at countries that do. Don't act like Hamas are some fringe group that Palestinians don't support. If that were true, they would be angry at hamas for firing rockets to begin with.

can you stop rambling on about rockets

the first ones to VIOLATE anybody were Israel, they showed unwarranted police brutality in Al Aqsa FIRST, injuring hundreds of Palestinian civilians minding their own business and not hurting a fly. are you saying, that as the only form of legitimate defence or government that Palestine has, Hamas was supposed to sit back and watch this happen, and not issue any warnings to a state that obviously fears no measly warning from anyone? Hamas issued a warning after the first Al Aqsa violation, Israel retaliated with TWICE as much violence, and so rockets were launched

and the Hamas rockets did virtually nothing, the death toll in Israel as of yet is only 12. whereas 250+ Palestinians have been killed so far, 2000+ wounded and 91,000 displaced and the numbers keep rising. "self-defence" does not justify the killing of children, it's not that deep why do you people have to think so hard about this

 

[queenb_3]

How far do you want to go back? Sounds like you want to start history AFTER arab imperialism, but if you really want to talk about "to begin with", there are only arabs in the region due to arabs invading other countries.

What’s with your obsession with Arabs and ‘Arab imperialism’?

 

[dan964]

can you stop rambling on about rockets

the first ones to VIOLATE anybody were Israel, they showed unwarranted police brutality in Al Aqsa FIRST, injuring hundreds of Palestinian civilians minding their own business and not hurting a fly. are you saying, that as the only form of legitimate defence or government that Palestine has, Hamas was supposed to sit back and watch this happen, and not issue any warnings to a state that obviously fears no measly warning from anyone? Hamas issued a warning after the first Al Aqsa violation, Israel retaliated with TWICE as much violence, and so rockets were launched

and the Hamas rockets did virtually nothing, the death toll in Israel as of yet is only 12. whereas 250+ Palestinians have been killed so far, 2000+ wounded and 91,000 displaced and the numbers keep rising. "self-defence" does not justify the killing of children, it's not that deep why do you people have to think so hard about this

That's because Israel has a defence against missiles (Iron Dome) that blocks something like 90% of missiles.

Israel has better defence systems then Gaza. Hence why only 12 were killed in Israel, compared to 248 in Gaza (1959 wounded)

While I do agree the response from Israel was disproportionate, don't think it was a good idea for Hamas to aimlessly launch rockets knowing full well how hard Israel could retaliate.

 

[dan964]

For weeks, Palestinians had been protesting the planned eviction of Palestinian families from the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem, leading to clashes with Israeli police and far-right-wing activists. There were also clashes between Palestinian protesters and the police elsewhere in the city, as well as a spate of assaults by Jewish and Arab street mobs, during the holy Muslim month of Ramadan, when tensions often run high.

The violence on Monday began after the police entered the mosque compound around 8 a.m. and fired rubber-tipped bullets and stun grenades at stone-throwing Palestinians.

The Israeli government said the police had been responding after the Palestinians started throwing stones at them. The Palestinians had stockpiled stones at the site in expectation of a standoff with the police and Jewish far-right groups.

Palestinian witnesses said the fighting began after the police entered the mosque compound and began firing.

By the afternoon, more than 330 Palestinians had been injured, with at least 250 hospitalized, according to the Palestinian Red Crescent. One person was hit in the head by a bullet and was in critical condition, the medical aid group said, with at least two more in serious or critical condition.

At least 21 police officers were injured, according to the police.

Hamas had been threatening for weeks to respond with force to what it described as Israeli provocations in Jerusalem. “Tampering with Jerusalem will burn the heads of the occupiers,” Saleh al-Arouri, a senior Hamas official, said on Sunday night.

The volley of half a dozen rockets that reached the Jerusalem area were the first to be fired toward the city since 2014, an army spokesman said.

Israel returned fire with airstrikes.

“Israel will respond with great force,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned in a statement. “We will not tolerate attacks on our territory, on our capital, on our citizens and on our soldiers. Whoever attacks us will pay a heavy price.”

The Israeli military said in a statement that an Israeli airstrike had killed eight Hamas operatives and struck two military sites and a tunnel used by militants.

Separately, the Islamic Jihad militant group fired an anti-tank missile from the Gaza perimeter toward an Israeli vehicle, wounding the driver.

An unusually high number of Palestinian citizens of Israel protested in solidarity with Gaza following the airstrikes, with many photographed waving Palestinian flags.

The Palestinian demonstrations over the planned expulsions in Sheikh Jarrah came after years of frustration over Israeli restrictions on building permits in East Jerusalem, which have forced Palestinian residents to leave the city or to build illegal housing and risk demolition. There have also been recent clashes over restrictions on Palestinian access to a popular plaza at the center of Palestinian communal life.

The unrest was long predicted to come to a boil on Monday, when far-right Israelis were scheduled to march through the Muslim Quarter of the Old City.

Full article: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/10/world/middleeast/jerusalem-protests-aqsa-palestinians.html

 

[jimmysmith560]

While I do agree the response from Israel was disproportionate and not justifiable, don't think it was a good idea for Hamas to aimlessly launch rockets knowing full well how hard Israel could retaliate.

My only comment on this is that while a lack of response from Hamas would probably prevent the escalation of the issue, this doesn't negate the fact that Israel started all this by killing innocent Palestinian citizens who were praying during their holy month. A lack of response from Hamas would imply a lack of Palestinian dignity.

Let's look at this from a Christian perspective: Imagine if during Christmas Eve/Day Mass innocent Christians get attacked and killed inside churches while they were praying to God on such a holy day. Imagine if the attackers are actually an organised state with sovereignty and everything (not a terrorist organisation - both Christians and Muslims were killed by terrorists) that happens to despise its Christian population. What should the response of Christians be? Should they just forget about it and move on like nothing happened?

This is only the religious aspect, so now we need to include the political aspect - When Israel has had long years of conflict with Palestine, there is already tension between the two sides. Attacking Palestinian forces is something that increases this tension, but deliberately attacking citizens at a mosque during a holy month is a huge insult and a serious attempt to demean Palestinians. If the wounded side was Christian, my perspective would remain the same.

 

[dan964]

My only comment on this is that while a lack of response from Hamas would probably prevent the escalation of the issue, this doesn't negate the fact that Israel started all this by killing innocent Palestinian citizens who were praying during their holy month. A lack of response from Hamas would imply a lack of Palestinian dignity.

Let's look at this from a Christian perspective: Imagine if during Christmas Eve/Day Mass innocent Christians get attacked and killed inside churches while they were praying to God on such a holy day. Imagine if the attackers are actually an organised state with sovereignty and everything (not a terrorist organisation - both Christians and Muslims were killed by terrorists) that happens to despise its Christian population. What should the response of Christians be? Should they just forget about it like nothing happened?

This is only the religious aspect, so now we need to include the political aspect - When Israel has had long years of conflict with Palestine, there is already tension between the two sides. Attacking Palestinian forces is something that increases this tension, but deliberately attacking citizens at a mosque during a holy month is a huge insult and a serious attempt to demean Palestinians. If the wounded side was Christian, my perspective would remain the same.

Ok, although Christians probably wouldn't retaliate with military airstrikes.

Secondly, a bit of misinformation, as far as I'm aware only injuries were incurred with what happened al Asqa mosque. I posted a timeline of events deliberately to show that both sides blame each other for instigating the violence.

Doesn't mean it was right what Israel did.

 

[jimmysmith560]

Ok, although Christians probably wouldn't retaliate with military airstrikes.

Secondly, a bit of misinformation, as far as I'm aware only injuries were incurred with what happened al Asqa mosque. I posted a timeline of events deliberately to show that both sides blame each other for instigating the violence.

That's a good point, perhaps Christians may express their anger in a less violent way, but that's still a response. Something this serious can't go through without a response. How effective it is will depend on the circumstances.

Perhaps I was misinformed about the casualties, I thought there were deaths. Regardless, there was still a motive and an attempt to severely harm a group of people during a highly important period of time to them and that specifically triggered Hamas's retaliation.

Doesn't mean it was right what Israel did.

Agreed.

 

[dan964]

That's a good point, perhaps Christians may express their anger in a less violent way, but that's still a response. Something this serious can't go through without a response. How effective it is will depend on the circumstances.

Perhaps I was misinformed about the casualties, I thought there were deaths. Regardless, there was still a motive and an attempt to severely harm a group of people during a highly important period of time to them and that specifically triggered Hamas's retaliation.

Agreed.

Hence my post from before. I don't see Hamas' response was effective because it gives justification for Israel to retaliate. And they have the capacity to come down hard on Hamas as we've seen.

 

[SylviaB]

What’s with your obsession with Arabs and ‘Arab imperialism’?

The vast majority of palestinians are arabs. Palestinians claim to be indigenous and accuse Israel of imperialism, but arabs are not indigenous to the levant and are only a majority of the Palestinian population in the first place due to arab imperialism.

Arabs/muslims tell western countries that they do not get to have sovereignty over their countries due to the history of western imperialism, but then they think they get to to do whatever they want in arab majority countries despite the fact that almost all of them came to be majority arab because of imperialism. They literally celebrate the fact that they conquered byzantium and numerous other violent conquests, then in the next breath they play the anti-imperialist victim.

 

[SylviaB]

Let's look at this from a Christian perspective: Imagine if during Christmas Eve/Day Mass innocent Christians get attacked and killed inside churches while they were praying to God on such a holy day. Imagine if the attackers are actually an organised state with sovereignty and everything (not a terrorist organisation - both Christians and Muslims were killed by terrorists) that happens to despise its Christian population. What should the response of Christians be? Should they just forget about it and move on like nothing happened?

No, but their response is almost certainly not going to be indiscriminately firing rockets at the opposing country.

Attacking Palestinian forces is something that increases this tension, but deliberately attacking citizens at a mosque during a holy month is a huge insult and a serious attempt to demean Palestinians. If the wounded side was Christian, my perspective would remain the same.

In numerous muslim countries, christians cannot even practice their religion and can be jailed or executed for 'blasphemy', and then they turn around and act like a persecuted religious minority.

 

[SylviaB]

are you saying, that as the only form of legitimate defence or government that Palestine has, Hamas was supposed to sit back and watch this happen, and not issue any warnings to a state that obviously fears no measly warning from anyone?

No, I'm saying its dumb to attack a country much more powerful like this. Not even talking about the morality of it, just the basic pragmatic facts of the situation.

and the Hamas rockets did virtually nothing, the death toll in Israel as of yet is only 12. whereas 250+ Palestinians have been killed so far, 2000+ wounded and 91,000 displaced and the numbers keep rising. "self-defence" does not justify the killing of children, it's not that deep why do you people have to think so hard about this

Israel is able to defend against most of the rockets so the impact was greatly reduced. But what do you expect Israel is going to do? Accept rockets being fired at its people? Or do you think they're going to do what hamas wants? Why on earth would they do that? They would be advertising to the world that the way to get Israel to do what you want is to launch rockets at it. The Israelis are not that stupid.

 

[jimmysmith560]

No, but their response is almost certainly not going to be indiscriminately firing rockets at the opposing country

Probably, although we don't know that for sure.

In numerous muslim countries, christians cannot even practice their religion and can be jailed or executed for 'blasphemy', and then they turn around and act like a persecuted religious minority.

To say that all Muslims don't deserve sympathy because some of them persecute Christians mainly in countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan is not a good thing. There are good and bad people within every religion.

Why don't we also look at nearby countries with significant Muslim populations, like Syria and Lebanon? Muslims in those countries don't persecute Christians or non-Muslims, they live together peacefully. Even in Palestine, Christians are not persecuted by Muslims. People from both religions are able to coexist.

We should stop Christians from being persecuted in Muslim countries such as those I've listed, but we should not let a particular group of people who had nothing to do with said persecution die.

 

[stressedadfff]

Ok, although Christians probably wouldn't retaliate with military airstrikes.

Secondly, a bit of misinformation, as far as I'm aware only injuries were incurred with what happened al Asqa mosque. I posted a timeline of events deliberately to show that both sides blame each other for instigating the violence.

Doesn't mean it was right what Israel did.

tf christians wouldn't retaliate with airstrikes??? says the evangelical. do us a favour and stfu

 

[jimmysmith560]

The problem is that there isn't a similar case to that of Israel-Palestine that is mainly affecting Christians. Sure, one might say that Palestinian Christians are still represented and are part of the conflict. But really the vast majority of Palestinians are Muslim and Hamas embraces a Muslim ideology. So until we have a conflict where an Islamic state deliberately attacks its Christian population who happens to be armed and able to retaliate, we can only speculate.

 

[SylviaB]

Probably, although we don't know that for sure.

Then your point is invalid.

To say that all Muslims don't deserve sympathy because some of them persecute Christians mainly in countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan is not a good thing. There are good and bad people within every religion.

Yeah, no. You're acting like these are fringe beliefs/actions, but they're not. Opinion polls repeatedly show that a majority of muslims support blasphemy laws.

We should stop Christians from being persecuted in Muslim countries such as those I've listed, but we should not let a particular group of people who had nothing to do with said persecution die.

Who said anything about dying? You were talking about these things happening at a mosque during holy month, hence my comment. Muslims do not respect other religions, so they should not expect to be respected by other religions.

 

[SylviaB]

tf christians wouldn't retaliate with airstrikes??? says the evangelical. do us a favour and stfu

Christian countries would bomb military and political targets. They wouldn't deliberately fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas.

 

[jimmysmith560]

Then your point is invalid.

My point would be invalid when something identical happens to a group of Christians who possess the same military capabilities and live under the same conditions as the Palestinians and the group of Christians ends up not responding the way Hamas did.

Yeah, no. You're acting like these are fringe beliefs/actions, but they're not. Opinion polls repeatedly show that a majority of muslims support blasphemy laws.

I establish a point based on regular and long-term encounters with Muslim people from all around the world, starting with nearby countries with significant Muslim populations like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq and then building on those encounters after moving to Australia through encounters with Muslims from countries like Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I might also add those I've met on BoS - Turkey and Algeria.

Your claim relies on opinion polls (for which you have not provided any sources). How do you expect me or anyone on this thread (both Christians and Muslims) to not question the accuracy or even the legitimacy of such polls?

Unless you're specifically talking about Saudi Arabia (which I agree was and still is a terrible country), your point is invalid.

Who said anything about dying? You were talking about these things happening at a mosque during holy month, hence my comment. Muslims do not respect other religions, so they should not expect to be respected by other religions.

Not doing anything about what's happening to Palestinians because "they do not respect other religions" means you're okay with/don't mind letting them die. Eventually, that's what's going to happen.

Incorrect, not all Muslims don't respect other religions, only a fraction of them doesn't. Most (if not all) of those lack proper education and are influenced by terrorist organisations and their extremist ideologies, mainly those of the Muslim Brotherhood and more recently those of ISIS etc.

If you had said "A number of Sunni Muslims with extremist ideologies don't respect other religions", your statement would've been much more accurate.

 

[queenb_3]

Muslims do not respect other religions, so they should not expect to be respected by other religions.

Who said we don't respect other religions? The only person here who is disrespectful is you. You don't know anything about Islam, so don't go bringing in your assumptions, and secondly, stop generalising an entire Muslim population- it's ridiculous.

SOME people don't respect others, and it doesn't mean that MUSLIMS in their entirely do the same. And if some people decide to do so, then that's because of THEIR own choice, not because of Islam. Didn't think it's so hard to understand.

Also, if you're going to use that defence, then well every black person (according to what you identify by), is islamophobic too. Just because you're demonstrating your hatred for Islam, does not give me the right to assume, every black individual is like that, just like it does not give you the right to generalise an entire Muslim population.

 

[queenb_3]

Not doing anything about what's happening to Palestinians because "they do not respect other religions" means you're okay with/don't mind letting them die. Eventually, that's what's going to happen.

The fact that he's generalising them, then saying it's okay for everyone to die, says a lot about you @SylviaB - When the IDF destroyed Churches in Palestine, do you know who helped them? Muslim Palestinians. When the Mosques were destroyed in Palestine, do you know who helped them? Christian Palestinians. As a matter of fact, do you even know what a Palestinian Priest said, "if they destroy your mosques, you can come to pray at our Churches". So no, the fact that you're justifying a whole ethnic cleansing, then going on to blame it on religions and further justify it is ridiculous.

Incorrect, not all Muslims don't respect other religions, only a fraction of them doesn't. Most (if not all) of those lack proper education and are influenced by terrorist organisations and their extremist ideologies, mainly those of the Muslim Brotherhood and more recently those of ISIS etc.

Exaclty, @SylviaB did you read that? Jimmy said "lack proper education and they are influenced....". To add onto that, we can say that they are also influenced by their own personal experiences. Just like you attack Muslims and Arabs based on some experience you had, their defence could be similar to yours based on their own experiences.

Not that it justifies either of you.

 

[SylviaB]

The fact that he's generalising them, then saying it's okay for everyone to die, says a lot about you @SylviaB - When the IDF destroyed Churches in Palestine, do you know who helped them? Muslim Palestinians. When the Mosques were destroyed in Palestine, do you know who helped them? Christian Palestinians. As a matter of fact, do you even know what a Palestinian Priest said, "if they destroy your mosques, you can come to pray at our Churches". So no, the fact that you're justifying a whole ethnic cleansing, then going on to blame it on religions and further justify it is ridiculous.

99% of gaza is muslim. Hamas is an islamic organisation, its right there in their name. Stop using the christian minority

Anti-semtism is rampant in palestine too, both in hamas (which literally supports genocide of jews), the president of the palestinian authority (who literally supports the holocaust) and amongst palestinians and muslims generally.