Kosovo declares Independence (3 Viewers)

[*Minka*]

Kosovo is part of Serbia. these dirty Albanians already have their own country, it's called 'Albania'. they should either stop breeding like rabbits and shoot eachother, or just fuck off back to Albania. simple, really.

We all know that Kosovo is going to merge with Albania soon enough anyway. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am no racist, but it deeply saddens me to think of what is the heart of Serbia being part of Albania, a nation which has shown it has little respect for Serbia's culture, faith and history.

 

[Marky24]

Writing on a study forum isn't going to get you anywhere

 

[*Minka*]

Again, sorry about the language, but this map shows the location of various churches destroyed by Albanians in Kosovo:

http://i25.tinypic.com/t6ezvr.jpg

A destroyed icon in a Serbian Orthodox church in Kosovo:

http://i31.tinypic.com/n2gymh.jpg

 

[ari89]

Fuck the Albanians
Serbs should enforce trade blocks and reclaim with force if necessary. Then for good fun we should burn down a few Albanian religious sites in true Albanian tradition.

 

[boris]

Alright, I'll be serious now.
I'm in the middle of typing a long response on why I support Kosovo's independence.



For the record, I'm a chick and I'm not a Croat. It may take me a while coz I am doing other stuff, but I'll have a serious response soon guys.

 

[boris]

But you agree with the Independance, so you must be a Croat!

Or Albanian!

Or not an idiot.

 

[boris]

Why I Support Kosovo’s Independence

By Me.
To start!

Rather than promoting seperatist movements, the international community should be focusing its attention on promoting understanding and acceptance of different ethnic communities within the Balkans, rather than exacerbating the problems by giving independence to fictional nations.

This will never happen. You know this deep down. I know this. The rest of the world knows this. It’s like asking Palestine to accept Israel. It’s like asking the Middle East to just accept different ethnic communities. I have never heard of, or seen it done. Especially not by two regions which, for the better part of 600 years, have been at war.

Unfortunately, like many immigrants from developing countries who move to developed countries like Australia, Albanians in the Balkan countries forget that even compared to other poor countries in the region, Albania is an underdeveloped hole.

It’s quite well known that compared with Albania, Kosovo’s standard of living is exponentially better. Of course they’re not going to go back to Albania.

The declaration of independence of the Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija is illegal and therefore it will never have legitimacy as state. The declaration is contrary to international legal principles of state sovereignty and the inviolability of a legally sovereign state's borders. It is also in contravention to Security Council Resolution 1244 which guarantees the predecessor of the Serbian Republic borders and sovereignty.

I’m confused. 1244 also says this;

Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic self-governing institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo

By the UNs own admission, Kosovo has the right to return to autonomy and has the right to have democratic self governing institutions developed. If Kosovo doesn’t exist, and if its existence as an independent state is illegal, why did not only the UN but also Yugoslavia in the 40s grant Kosovo autonomy. Keeping in mind kids that Kosovo has existed for approximately 600 years.

The Serbian government has been very reasonable in what it has offered the Albanians of Kosovo and Metohija. They have for quite some time stated that they find a substantial degree of autonomy as an acceptable and fair alternative to independence. The goodwill of the Serbian government should be evident in the fact that they are only pursuing diplomatic measures against this illegal declaration and abhorrent injustice.

This is no doubt the same goodwill that was extended when the Serbian government decided to force Kosovo Albanians out of Kosovo, leading to the displacement of a few hundred thousand Albanians which in turn led to Serbia getting raped by NATO which in turn led to the UN telling Kosovo it can return to substantial autonomy?
Now to my points!
1. The region occupied by Kosovo has not been Serbian territory since ancient times. I think you will find that the area occupied by current Kosovo had many different owners incuding; Romans, Byzantine and eventually Serbs (which at the time was not a unified nation but a series of kingdoms like Greece!). For arguments sake lets say that Serbia fully gained control of the area known as Kosovo in roughly the 1200s.
2. I don’t accept this idea by Serbs that Albanians are relatively new to Kosovo. Historically this is incorrect; and whilst originally Serbs were the population majority in Kosovo, there have always been Albanians living there as well.
3. Now Kosovo has not always been owned by Serbia. When the Turkish Ottomans were raping and pillaging a lot of Europe they also came to present day Serbia and controlled it for quite a few centuries. This I think was a turning point in Kosovo, because when they invaded they brought Islam. This was by most accounts readily adopted by Albanians but not by Serbs and consequently a lot of Serbs evaded the Ottomans and moved away from Kosovo.
4. The borders of present day Kosovo and medieval Kosovo are largely different. Kosovo at one point extended into Albania, again I think reassuring my view that Kosovo has NOT always been Serbian territory.
5. We can agree that there were atrocities done by both sides of the fence in the 1900s, but we’re finally getting to my main argument for Kosovo independence.

My points for Independence
Historically, and contrary to popular Serbian belief, Kosovo has not always been Serb. Nor has it only recently been populated by Albanians. Albanians have lived in Kosovo for as long as Serbs have. Population fluctuations happen, as have happened in Kosovo, and where Slavs were the main occupants of Kosovo 100+ years ago, they aren’t anymore.

Kosovo has been granted autonomy. It then had its autonomy revoked. It was then granted autonomy! The next natural step after a province has been granted substantial autonomy is to become independent.

 

[boris]

http://www.nato.int/Kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm

For your reading pleasure.

 

[Mihailovic]

I’m confused. 1244 also says this;
Quote:
Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic self-governing institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo
Thank you boris for doing my job and highlighting the sections of the resolution that clearly determine that independence is illegal according to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244. However, you should have highlighted 'within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia' and not conveniently ignore it. Substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (the predecessor state of the Republic of Serbia), which is what the Resolution clearly stipulates and what the Serbian government has been offering, precludes independence.

'The next natural step after a province has been granted substantial autonomy is to become independent.' - that is a completely arbitrary opinion. It is by no means a 'natural' step especially if the sovereign state does not agree to the independence of one of its own provinces. International law does not support your assertion of it being 'natural'.

And importantly you fail to make a distinction between the dictatorial government of Slobodan Milosevic and the pro-Western Serbian government of today. It demonstrates a very poor understanding of context.

 

[boris]

I’m confused. 1244 also says this;
Quote:
Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic self-governing institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo
Thank you boris for doing my job and highlighting the sections of the resolution that clearly determine that independence is illegal according to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244. However, you should have highlighted 'within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia' and not conveniently ignore it. Substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (the predecessor state of the Republic of Serbia), which is what the Resolution clearly stipulates and what the Serbian government has been offering, precludes independence.

'The next natural step after a province has been granted substantial autonomy is to become independent.' - that is a completely arbitrary opinion. It is by no means a 'natural' step especially if the sovereign state does not agree to the independence of one of its own provinces. International law does not support your assertion of it being 'natural'.

And importantly you fail to make a distinction between the dictatorial government of Slobodan Milosevic and the pro-Western Serbian government of today. It demonstrates a very poor understanding of context.

Conveniently for Serbia it was Yugoslavia's predecessor.

Why did I need to make a distinction between Slobodan and the pro western Serbian government of today?

Thus far nobody has come up with a suitable argument as to why Kosovo cannot have its independence. Thus far the argument has been; Serbia owns it, oh but Serbia has historic ties with Kosovo (discussed in my response) oh but 1244!!

United States, Turkey, Albania, Austria, Germany, Italy, France, United Kingdom and Australia support Kosovo's independence. Clearly nobody else in the world gives a stuff about Serbia's emotional ties with Kosovo.

There is no reason for the sovereign state (Serbia) to not agree with independence. The only reason I can see is greed.

 

[Mihailovic]

I have given many reasons under international law as to why any declaration of independence by Kosovo is illegal.

You need to make the distinction between Milosevic and the new Serbian government because they have offered Kosovo a substantial degree of autonomy, in accordance with what resolution 1244 explicitly calls for. They, and the Serbian people as a whole, were not responsible for the policies of Milosevic and should not be punished for his policies.

The reason the Republic of Serbia has not and will never accept this illegal declaration of independence, is partially due to the emotional significance of Kosovo to the Serbian nation, but even more so because they have international law on their side. The secession of Kosovo, a Serbian province, is illegal and sets a dangerous precedent in international law. That is a fact Russia and China recognises.

 

[bassistx]

Yeah, blame the Jews

^ Ethnic Cleanser

I simply could not resist.

Chris, how can I marry you if your heart belongs to decypher?

 

[boris]

I have given many reasons under international law as to why any declaration of independence by Kosovo is illegal.

You need to make the distinction between Milosevic and the new Serbian government because they have offered Kosovo a substantial degree of autonomy, in accordance with what resolution 1244 explicitly calls for. They, and the Serbian people as a whole, were not responsible for the policies of Milosevic and should not be punished for his policies.

The reason the Republic of Serbia has not and will never accept this illegal declaration of independence, is partially due to the emotional significance of Kosovo to the Serbian nation, but even more so because they have international law on their side. The secession of Kosovo, a Serbian province, is illegal and sets a dangerous precedent in international law. That is a fact Russia and China recognises.

No.
China and Russia accept this purely for their own reasons, not because they care about setting a dangerous precedence. Since when have Russia and China been the forebearers of human and sovereign rights?

I understand that there is a cultural significance to Serbia, but I don't accept that it's a valid reason to stop independence.
If Serbia is worried about what will happen to monestaries and old buildings after independence, I can probably guess now that sanctions will be imposed to maintain the integrity of these buildings.
Serbs are a minority in Kosovo as it is and as long as a Serbian government is in charge of a Muslim Albanian majority, there will be trouble.

 

[bassistx]

Mmmm, they seem to have missed that pic, I saved it lol.
It's interesting.

Source?

 

[decypher]

Chris, how can I marry you if your heart belongs to decypher?

I'm sure we can find room in the marital bed.

 

[bassistx]

I'm sure we can find room in the marital bed.

But... That's more like my wildest dreams rather than an open relationship lol.
Are you getting married too? If so, does that mean we're all married to each other? lol.
How cool, I get 2 husbands and you each have 1 wife. Awesome

On wikipedia, there's a proposal for a flag (for kosovo).
Somebody link it...

 

[Gillard's Hair]

But... That's more like my wildest dreams rather than an open relationship lol.
Are you getting married too? If so, does that mean we're all married to each other? lol.
How cool, I get 2 husbands and you each have 1 wife. Awesome

On wikipedia, there's a proposal for a flag (for kosovo).
Somebody link it...

is that the blue and yellow one, looks like a skidmark stain.

 

[ari89]

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1149/supportserbiaqw3.png

 

[ari89]

• Kosovo has just 2 million people. Sure, some microstates, such as Singapore and Panama, make it. But more often, the story is like East Timor's, a nonviable state in turmoil since its 1999 independence. With a GDP per capita of $250, 50% unemployment and half the population under 16, the odds against Kosovo are long.


Awash in corruption and mafias, free market reforms will be tough, and many unemployed young Muslims will be looking for a purpose. "Its instability risks attracting Islamic extremists from around the world," warned ex-U.S. envoy to the U.N. John Bolton.


• Ramming independence through for Kosovo with no regard for Serbia opens the door to new secession movements. Countries such as Spain, which faces a similar situation with Basque terrorist secessionists, tellingly declined to recognize Kosovo.


Canada has reason to worry about Quebec. Russia, China and Iraq fear breakaway regions, too. Meanwhile, Macedonia and Montenegro, which have ethnic Albanian populations, now fear a precedent for parts of their territory to be pulled into a greater Albania.


• The West has lost credibility by breaking its promise to Serbia. Terrorists will take note.


• Alliances are weakened. As the U.S. and dominant nations of the EU push through Kosovo statehood, the nearby nations of Poland, Hungary, Romania, Greece and Israel oppose it. This not only splits the EU with its eastern members. It separates the U.S. from its New Europe allies — not the least of which is Serbia, a country that allied itself to the West in two world wars.


• Russia's appetite for payback is whetted. Unlike smaller nations, Russia has a global reach and engages in tit for tat.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=288402632924430

 

[boris]

lol @ $250