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Kyoto Protocol (2 Viewers)

walrusbear

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not always a majority
the involvement in the iraq invasion, for example


and often people think they 'want' something because the government is disguising the real nature of policies and events
 

thorrnydevil

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Ok, Howard is NOT an idiot.

Asquithian, Howard he graduated in 1961 and practiced for 11 years. This doesn't show he is an idiot.

On Bush, I actually hate to say it, but I agree with the Bush haters. The only reason he has a degree from Yale and Harvard is because his daddy and the boys at the Skull and Bones social club used there influence and money to put him through it. On his Military Service record it actually says he is a deserter. Now, I'm not anti-America, just anti-Bush administration.
 

patlaw

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thorrnydevil said:
Ok, Howard is NOT an idiot.

Asquithian, Howard he graduated in 1961 and practiced for 11 years. This doesn't show he is an idiot.

On Bush, I actually hate to say it, but I agree with the Bush haters. The only reason he has a degree from Yale and Harvard is because his daddy and the boys at the Skull and Bones social club used there influence and money to put him through it. On his Military Service record it actually says he is a deserter. Now, I'm not anti-America, just anti-Bush administration.
....blah blah blah .... How do you know that Johnny didn't get into Syd Uni from influence and money that daddy was so willing to give. Think about what your saying. I think it was benji Franklin who said "Better to keep your mouth shut and for people to think your a fool than to open your mouth and prove it"

Don't ya just love it when someone pulls out the claws!
 

mervvyn

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Mr Howard, for all his real and perceived faults, is not an idiot. He is, however, a very deft manipulator of political advantage and in most cases will go where the votes are (notable exceptions being the republic, "sorry" and perhaps the GST).

With regards to Kyoto, he and the Liberal party know they can get away from it because the US hasn't ratified either, and because he has the support of the fossil fuel industry to do so - his economic arguments being that the economy, in the form of coal export and energy industries, would suffer. He's probably correct in his judgement there, but this doesn't justify a short term policy of economic rationalism in favour of a long term policy of global cooperation towards better environmental management.
Kyoto may not be a cure-all for global warming and carbon dioxide, but it's the best step in the right direct we have. If more of the big polluters ratified and obeyed it, then it might actually be quite effective, like the Montreal Protocol was for eliminating CFCs almost entirely. And if investments were made in renewable energy technolgy were made (2% is really pathetic...), then concerns about reducing productivity (like in the US steel industry) could be somewhat allayed.
So yeah, we haven't ratified because it's politically and economically easier not to do so.
 

mervvyn

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patlaw said:
....blah blah blah .... How do you know that Johnny didn't get into Syd Uni from influence and money that daddy was so willing to give. Think about what your saying. I think it was benji Franklin who said "Better to keep your mouth shut and for people to think your a fool than to open your mouth and prove it"

Don't ya just love it when someone pulls out the claws!
Because Mr Howard's parents weren't particularly rich or well off - that was the impression I got from this article today.

For a bit of bedtime reading:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/17/1095394004427.html

SMH Article said:
HIS FATHER was a World War I digger and garage proprietor at Dulwich Hill. He has described his parents as "meticulously honest, unpretentious and upright", adding: "I inherited Mum's values: the Protestant work ethic, that if you work hard and if you're honest in your dealings with people, you will get your rewards."

...

Howard scored As in English and modern history in the Leaving Certificate and Bs in Latin, chemistry and economics. He failed general maths. The results wouldn't get him into most law schools today and there must be some doubt that the family could afford to buy his way in under the Howard Government.
 

patlaw

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Of course he gonna say that! Howard wants to build an impression that he's an Aussie battler and has a rags to riches kinda story. I gather we all know why he might want to do that ... cough ....election ....cough!
 

mervvyn

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Yeah of course he wants to present himself in the best light - BUT:
a) he didn't write the article, and he doesn't appear to be quoted a whole lot, which is where he would be trying to look his best
b) the information that IS there doesn't really lend itself to "daddy's money and influence" - i don't think 1950s/60s garage proprietors would have had a whole lot of either
 

Cape

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If Australia was to sign the kyoto agreement, i was told that cause our emission levels are lower than the required level for developed countries, we were allowed to use more. However, america has to reduce the amount of emissions. But cause america won't sign it we won't sign it. :mad:
 

mervvyn

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Cape said:
If Australia was to sign the kyoto agreement, i was told that cause our emission levels are lower than the required level for developed countries, we were allowed to use more. However, america has to reduce the amount of emissions. But cause america won't sign it we won't sign it. :mad:
It is true that our emissions would be allowed to increase relative to 1990 under Kyoto, but i think our emissions have grown even more than that since then, so we'd still end up having to cut back emissions which equals having to spend money on renewable energy which would undercut our coal and oh deaaaaaaaaaaaarie me.

The US is refusing to ratify, partly because of us, but more because of the strength of the oil and industry lobby groups, in whose interest it is very much is to keep polluting for as long as possible. It's in the same league as the oil companies buying up patents for renewable energy technologies and sitting on them.
The point is, the lobbies put pressure on the President and the Senate not to ratify Kyoto (Clinton signed it but couldn't ratify, Bush hasn't even wanted to ratify, instead introducing his "Clean Air" legisation which is oxymoronic like most of the titles of his legislation), and voila, it still isn't.
 

Cape

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Why do australia and the us always follow each other.

Oil supplies are bound to run out soon enough ... personally i think that we should use the sun or the wind ... save some money and the environment at once.
 

mervvyn

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Yeah me too...
The problem is convincing all the people with money, power and influence to do that. There are some politicians with better green policies than others, but their problem is power of the "old energy" lobbies. Those lobbies want to get every cent they can out of fossil fuels and polluting practices while they can, and then when it becomes convenient they will continue their domination and money spinning by developing the patents they bought with their riches...
isn't it great how money makes the world go round?
 

Cape

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Its crap that money makes the world go around.

I wonder how much of these fossil fuels are actually left???

Never know, what happened in the day after tomorrow could always happen, lol. but maybe not to that extent.
 

mervvyn

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There is probably more left than a lot of people think, but demand is increasing faster than we can find new reserves that are also economic to extract - just think of the rate at which China is developing, not to mention India and the rest of the developing world - as well as the whole issue of carbon emissions screwing up the planet.
What happened in the day after tomorrow was pretty scary, but so is some of the stuff they are predicting for real, like the rainfall changes and the temp changes. They will take time to happen, but so will beneficial changes, and the damage will be harder to undo. The world environment will have changed a lot by the time we are ready to croak, i think.
 

Cape

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Look at the case with oil / petrol.

It used to be so cheap ... now look at it. More than a $1 a litre... it would be cheaper to switch the having a gas system in the car, even though thats not environmentally friendly, its better than using fuel.

Climate change is bound to happen with all the pollution that the majority of the world is creating ... for example, did we even have a winter this yr???
 

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thorrnydevil said:
mmm...there has to be some part were we have to cut our CFC usage.
That's the Montreal Protocol isn't it? And all they did was stop using CFC's and replaced them with CFB's or something. Or BFC's...the Bromo goes somewhere, I just don't remember the structure :S
 

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Cape said:
However, america has to reduce the amount of emissions. But cause america won't sign it we won't sign it.
i thought america did sign it already or is that the montreal protocol?
yulia said:
That's the Montreal Protocol isn't it? And all they did was stop using CFC's and replaced them with CFB's or something. Or BFC's...the Bromo goes somewhere, I just don't remember the structure :S
you dont do chemistry do you? :)
 

thorrnydevil

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patlaw said:
....blah blah blah .... How do you know that Johnny didn't get into Syd Uni from influence and money that daddy was so willing to give. Think about what your saying. I think it was benji Franklin who said "Better to keep your mouth shut and for people to think your a fool than to open your mouth and prove it"

Don't ya just love it when someone pulls out the claws!
Hahahaha...blah blah blah...thanks for your quote. Now who looks like a fool!!! Howard went to public schools his whole life and unlike Bush his daddy wasn't President of the United States, Head of the CIA, Chairman of many countries and one of the richest men in America.

So, as I keep saying, if you don't know what your talking about shut your stupid mouth.

Don't ya just love it when someone pulls out the claws!
 

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yulia said:
That's the Montreal Protocol isn't it? And all they did was stop using CFC's and replaced them with CFB's or something. Or BFC's...the Bromo goes somewhere, I just don't remember the structure :S
There are problems with Halons as well (Bromine containing haloalkanes which leads them to being banned)

They wanted them replaced with:
CHFC's (Carbon Hydro Fluoride Chloride's) and eventually
CHF's (Carbon Hydro Fluoride's).

Ozone depletion potential wise:
CFC's (1.0)
CHFC's (.11-.02)
CHF's (0.0)
 

Cape

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CFC reduction was the montreal protocol. we and america have signed that. Thats why in spray cans there are no cfc's anymore.
 

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