'Law school applicants compete for fewer places' (2 Viewers)

[melsc]

By the way lawyers have to continue legal education throughout their career to remain qualified.

 

[RogueAcademic]

By the way lawyers have to continue legal education throughout their career to remain qualified.

That is a given, yes. It also depends on which jurisdiction and the requirements of your local legal institute/association.

 

[Season]

ANU is a case in point of how I think things should work: they have a graduate medicine program, to which you are admitted based upon your GPA and GAMSAT results. I think they also have a program where students with 98+ UAI's are given a provisional offer to graduate medicine? (provided they maintain a certain GPA)

I was actually referring to law, not medicine, but yes you're right ANU only has grad med

That's also true for the most part. But keep in mind that there are more law courses out there than medical courses. The opportunities for law graduates is much much more competitive than for medical graduates.

My point is that if you do a law degree =/= becoming a lawyer, while medicine does. This justifies the crazy admissions system. In fact as long as you graduate, you are guaranteed a job. If you get into medicine and you've found out you've made a mistake, its very hard to get out of it. Unlike law where most graduates don't end up even practising.

True, this is one of the arguments people put forwards for graduate law- most school leavers have no idea what they really want to do, and law seems an attractive option due to percieved prestige, potential renumeration, etc.

So some naive kid gets into law and finds out that it isn't for them... what is the problem with this? They'll learn a lesson, the government gets paid, and people who are happy. They aren't stuck in the profession and the people who missed out first time round can try an alternative route.

It doesn't take that long to be a GP. Even so, after gaining qualifications from a specialist medical college, the medical practitioner is still expected to keep their medical knowledge up to date through personal study. Medical graduates also start making a decent amount of money right after graduation too.

WRONG

GP
6 year medical degree + internship year + 3.5 GP training program = 10.5 years

Physician
'6 year medical degree+ internship year + 6 years (mind you most people fail the final exam and end up making that 7 years) = 13+

etc.
I know what I'm talking about

 

[RogueAcademic]

If you get into medicine and you've found out you've made a mistake, its very hard to get out of it.

What exactly do you mean "it's very hard to get out of it"? People get out of it all the time either by quitting the course midway through, or after graduation, or after internship, or beyond that. There are plenty of opportunities for medical graduates in consulting, R&D, even hospital administration. Others go on to postgrad study in a completely different area.

WRONG

GP
6 year medical degree + internship year + 3.5 GP training program = 10.5 years

We are talking about grad med here, 4 years. Plus 1 year internship, another couple of years in GP training after that, maybe 8 years all up.

 

[Season]

What exactly do you mean "it's very hard to get out of it"? People get out of it all the time either by quitting the course midway through, or after graduation, or after internship, or beyond that. There are plenty of opportunities for medical graduates in consulting, R&D, even hospital administration. Others go on to postgrad study in a completely different area.

With the current doctor shortage, family pressure, society pressure, the fact that the degree isn't geared towards much else except medicine, yeah there is quite a bit of pressure in there. Unlike law where the pressure is non-existant.

We are talking about grad med here, 4 years. Plus 1 year internship, another couple of years in GP training after that, maybe 8 years all up.

Considering you can't get into grad medicine with high performance on an undergrad degree you have missed out 3 years.

3 + 4 +1 + 3.5 = 11.5 years minimum for a GP

not to mention those people who take an extra year to do honours/go travel/have a family etc.

 

[thegovernator]

how do you arrive at the conclusion that there is no pressure in studying law?

 

[ellasrules]

hey guys,
94.90 enter, u rekon that'll get me into arts at melb??
Do u think its extremely difficult to get into postgrad Law at melb? like it sed 70% is a H2 sumthing...high distincion i think...my god that sounds hard but i wana try my ass off.....
In my arts degree id love to transfer for like a semester to UCLA or sum Uni in the US, do u think that wuld make a stronger application??
what else can u do during ur arts degree or wateva degree undergrad, to make u a stronger candidate??

 

[ellasrules]

ps...sum1 sed sumthing like....the JD doesnt take into account only high skool marks...wtf??? dnt tell me ur enter is looked at when applying for the JD, 3 yrs after VCE!!???????

 

[himmy6996]

Season your an idiot - you seem to know about medicine career route and absolutely nothing else (although you imply knowledge as to the pressure, statistics and nature of a law degree).

Firstly, if you manage to pass the scrupulous tests for medicine and find out you suddenly don't like it a couple of years in, its very unlikely that with that intelligence no uni is gonna take you into the course you want. ""Don't like medicine!? Well thats your career over with then." stupid

Secondly the statistic you pulled for law, even if it is correct, just proves the diversity and complexity of skills or "qualifications" required for law (not just "smart" people) - legal skills open up a wide range of career paths. You said that most people considered law a quasi-arts degree - who is "most people" - your inner circle of arrogant family friends in the medical profession?

 

[Season]

Himmy and thegovernator

My knowledge of this lack of pressure is based on two main things

a) 47% of law grads, become lawyers Reference: http://www.theage.com.au/news/education-news/law-amp-the-new-order/2007/04/15/1176575673097.html

b) While I do not do law, both my brothers do law and due to a number of organisations I have been involved in I actually have a lot of contact with current law students and many of them have stated that they have absolutely no intention of doing law.

Oh and since you made a big fuss about my family background let me enlighten you about my family. My father did law for fun, both my brothers are doing law, my cousin did law and is currently working for Macquarie bank. Our family discussions are debates about politics, and what can I say- we entertain quite a bit. I also enjoy debating, public speaking, and organizations like UNYA. My favourite colour is blue and I like enjoy dancing in my spare time.
Interesting fact: I am first person to show an interest in science in my family.

Thank you for showing such a keen interest in my intelligence and family friends, I'm very proud of who I am and its nice to see that people who know nothing about my life take precious time to point out how awesome it is. Much appreciated

 

[thegovernator]

I never made any assumptions. I just think if you think there is no pressure in studying law then you are wrong. It depends on who you are and what your goals are.

Sure, there might be no pressure if you just wanna breeze your way through with a bare pass mark, but what of the person who wants first class honours? anyway, I just can't understand what you mean how there is no pressure in studying law.

 

[Metric]

Himmy, lets keep it civilised. We're all friends here :wave:

hey guys, 94.90 enter, u rekon that'll get me into arts at melb??

Wouldn't want to hijack the threat or anything . I think with an ENTER of 94.9 you'll be safely in (don't quote me). I would be surprised to see a BA that requires more than 95! The Melbourne University website says the guarenteed entry (ie. DFEE cut-off) is 85, so I guess the CSP would be around 90. Because its a new course (the colourfully titled "New Generation BA") they don't give a CSP cut-off for last year.

Do u think its extremely difficult to get into postgrad Law at melb? like it sed 70% is a H2 sumthing...high distincion i think...my god that sounds hard but i wana try my ass off.

70% is a credit average, I have no idea what H2 means (I think it means Second Class Honours, I know Victorian universities use these as grades) but I would think H1=HD. In any case, I really can't see how the Melbourne JD could require a HD average to get into. I would contact Melbourne about it and ask them, hopefully they can give you a pretty clear idea of what is required to get in.

In my arts degree id love to transfer for like a semester to UCLA or sum Uni in the US, do u think that wuld make a stronger application?? what else can u do during ur arts degree or wateva degree undergrad, to make u a stronger candidate??

Get great marks during university and do well in the LSAT. You will also have to write a personal statement, so getting involved in extra-curricular activities is a good idea as it will give you some firepower. I'm sure they'll look favourably on any exchange you go on.

 

[himmy6996]

Season I was just seeking to mirror your logic or lackthereof through baseless presumptions and sweeping generalisations - and just because you have 2 or 3 or 20 people in your family who do/did law doesnt mean thats a very accurate representation of the "ins" and "outs" of a law degree - so you can take all the offense you want to assumptions on your background but it merely reflects the presumptuous ignorance with which you made earlier claims.

As to the statistics and actual argument points - you may notice I didn't doubt your integrity as to the statistic - just indicated you made inaccurate conclusions from it. I still dont see how your stuck if you start doing medicine and decide you don't like it.

My favourite colour is also blue

 

[Frigid]

Oh and since you made a big fuss about my family background let me enlighten you about my family. My father did law for fun, both my brothers are doing law, my cousin did law and is currently working for Macquarie bank. Our family discussions are debates about politics, and what can I say- we entertain quite a bit. I also enjoy debating, public speaking, and organizations like UNYA. My favourite colour is blue and I like enjoy dancing in my spare time.

haha, then would you be interested in a libran studying law who's interested in reading, cooking, rom-coms and long walks by the beach?

/kidding.

 

[hfis]

Haha. There are two people who did their HSC in 2007 arguing about tertiary education.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Season - for someone who is as arrogant as your are in your replies, your 'facts' aren't exactly accurate, and your other non-factual yet 'indisputable' statements, as is revealed, come from your family...?

Where exactly did you acquire your opinion that it takes 3.5 years for qualify as a GP?

What are the chances - my favourite colour is also blue.

 

[Season]

Where exactly did you acquire your opinion that it takes 3.5 years for qualify as a GP?

The training program takes 3 years full time. A four-year program is available for those wishing to obtain an advanced rural postgraduate award (FACRRM or Grad Dip Rural). A Registrar in AGPT must complete three years of work-based training with a regional training provider before becoming eligible for Fellowship, however registrars may sit the FRACGP examinations in their third year of training.
To achieve full registration as a general practitioner, the registrar must successfully complete the training aspect of the program and the Fellowship exam. They are then eligible for the conferment of fellowship and vocational registration.

This has been taken from the Australian Medical Association
Reference: http://www.ama.com.au/web.nsf/doc/WEEN-6CY3MF?opendocument

Some other useful sites
Royal Australian College of General Practitioners http://www.racgp.org.au/
Vocational training page for GPs. http://www.racgp.org.au/vocationaltraining

A phamplet aimed at doctors in 2008 on obtaining their fellowship, it states quite clearly that you need a minimum of 3, most likely 4 years of supervised practice to work as a GP and have a medicare no. (ie get paid)
http://www.racgp.org.au/Content/NavigationMenu/educationandtraining/Fellowship/RequirementsforFellowship/2008FellowshipGuide.pdf

Sure, there might be no pressure if you just wanna breeze your way through with a bare pass mark, but what of the person who wants first class honours? anyway, I just can't understand what you mean how there is no pressure in studying law.

I was referring to pressure to become a lawyer after you graduate, I have no doubt that studying law and achieving high marks in any degree is all dependant on the individual not the degree.

As for the claims I have from experiences of myself and family, how do you propose I get them? Its not exactly something they do studies on and release official information. I can only assume that if there was a large amount of pressure then a large amount of graduates would be doing law. Yet the one objective piece of data reigns in my favour.

More so I have no seen anyone else offer any other piece of more objective piece of information then personal experience, so until someone does offer a bit of objective piece of data that proves all my "arrogant" claims wrong, I will abide by my earlier claims.


Frigid: it would never work,

But as the Cancer woman begins to slowly open up and reveal her feelings and changing moods, the Libra man’s airy, abstract approach to life may not rest comfortably with her emotional world.

you're just... too... abstract okay... if finally decide to let emotions rule... then give me a call

 

[RogueAcademic]

This has been taken from the Australian Medical Association
Reference: http://www.ama.com.au/web.nsf/doc/WEEN-6CY3MF?opendocument

Some other useful sites
Royal Australian College of General Practitioners http://www.racgp.org.au/
Vocational training page for GPs. http://www.racgp.org.au/vocationaltraining

A phamplet aimed at doctors in 2008 on obtaining their fellowship, it states quite clearly that you need a minimum of 3, most likely 4 years of supervised practice to work as a GP and have a medicare no. (ie get paid)
http://www.racgp.org.au/Content/NavigationMenu/educationandtraining/Fellowship/RequirementsforFellowship/2008FellowshipGuide.pdf

So where does it say it takes a 3.5 years as a bare minimum or as an absolute, as you so strongly insist? And no I do not count the non-medical undergrad degree as part of the years it takes to become a GP. If you do, you'd have to include your school years 12+3+4+1+3=23.

Even an undergraduate med degree to GP is: 6+1+3= 10 years. But the minimum years it takes to become a GP is still the grad med route of 4+1+3= 8 years, as I mentioned earlier.

But to go back to the actual point of what we were discussing, medical graduates begin a paid job from internship. You might say it takes further training to specialise but that is a moot point when their paid career as a medical practitioner really begins much earlier.

As for the claims I have from experiences of myself and family, how do you propose I get them? Its not exactly something they do studies on and release official information. I can only assume that if there was a large amount of pressure then a large amount of graduates would be doing law. Yet the one objective piece of data reigns in my favour.

More so I have no seen anyone else offer any other piece of more objective piece of information then personal experience, so until someone does offer a bit of objective piece of data that proves all my "arrogant" claims wrong, I will abide by my earlier claims.

You use the words 'claims', 'not exactly.. official information', and 'assume'. It's fine to share your experiences but to do so and insist that your blessed words are treated as gospel is arrogance.

Either way, if we are going by your flawed logic, would the personal opinion and experiences of a university academic staff member who has had years of immediate involvement with both the professional and student medical/legal community be worth more than your 2 to 6 degrees of separation as a high school student?

Yet the one objective piece of data reigns in my favour.

Here's an example of your arrogance, and yet you misquoted that reigning piece of objective data.

 

[ari89]

stfu already

Hint: Law students do not care about how long it takes to become a GP etc

 

[RogueAcademic]

stfu already

Hint: Law students do not give a fuck about how long it takes to become a GP etc

*slapped back into reality* goddammit you're right

*edited - well actually that's not entirely true in my case. I have a vested interest in these areas for my own reasons, partly personal and professional.