Muslim People in Australia (4 Viewers)

[ur_inner_child]

If there is a decision that this girl should maryr that boy, then there is kind of like a "date" setting. So, take this scene for example. Both families are in one large dining room, hoping that the girl and boy will get married. One by one, they file out of the room (if they go as one big bunch then it'll look toooo obvious ), eventually leaving the boy and girl alone. Now, these two people start talking, finding out what they each do and stuff etc. etc.. Now as a result of this "date", each have their decision to marry or not.

what would you call something that may not lead to marriage, but moreso an exploration and a learning experience of what you may want in a relationship, that involves no sexual activities at the time? To be incredibly good friends and learn to co-operate as partners that are attracted to each other, something which is far different to learning what it is like to co-operate with friends. There is far more emotional discovery involved.

I understand what you're getting at. I had to explain to my parents, when I first started liking a boy in year 8 who happened to like me too, that I didn't intend to marry him, and that I didn't intend to sex him either. It was a very hard concept to grasp for my parents.

EDIT: I would also understand, that it wouldn't be accepted anyway, considering my parents still don't accept it... which, i can kinda of see the reason.

 

[Generator]

If there is a decision that this girl should maryr that boy, then there is kind of like a "date" setting. So, take this scene for example. Both families are in one large dining room, hoping that the girl and boy will get married. One by one, they file out of the room (if they go as one big bunch then it'll look toooo obvious ), eventually leaving the boy and girl alone. Now, these two people start talking, finding out what they each do and stuff etc. etc.. Now as a result of this "date", each have their decision to marry or not.

I don't mean to seem rude, but given the first line of the above response, I take it that the boy and girl have no real say in the matter beyond that of deciding whether they will agree with the choice of the parents or not?

 

[tempco]

I don't mean to seem rude, but given the first line of the above response, I take it that the boy and girl have no real say in the matter beyond that of deciding whether they will agree with the choice of the parents or not?

Meeting a partner can happen through many ways; recommendations from parents, uni, work, etc, and if they're interested in each other, the man usually approaches the woman's family for an opportunity to get to know her more.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Meeting a partner can happen through many ways; recommendations from parents, uni, work, etc, and if they're interested in each other, the man usually approaches the woman's family for an opportunity to get to know her more.

thats kinda cute. are parents in general usual very open about these things? can a man be offered a second chance if say, he embarrassed himself the first time?

 

[Generator]

Meeting a partner can happen through many ways; recommendations from parents, uni, work, etc, and if they're interested in each other, the man usually approaches the woman's family for an opportunity to get to know her more.

That makes the situation a little clearer, and it puts it inline with just about every other social/cultural/religious order that requires the involvement and the consent of the parents.

 

[physician]

You must admit that that does seem quite strange, physician - surely young people of the Islamic faith should be able to mingle freely (mingle, not become sexually active... I'm not going to get into that now) with members of the opposite sex before they commit to a marriage?

What is the reason for not allowing a young man or woman to 'date', if you don't mind the question?

I can admit that to a person of Non-Muslim faith ( or non-practicing Muslim) it would seem strange, but No! I dont find it strange at all!

Thats what we believe engagements are for, when u get engaged u can start 'dating' that person (of course this dating has its guidelines), and get to know each other, if u find that shes the right person for u and vice versa, then u can get married!

Mingling can mean/refer to, a few different things, so im not quite sure how i should go about answering that questions!

However, i can provide u with a hadith (saying of the Prophet peace be upon him) that indicates the impermissibility of a man and women being alone together without being accompanied by a male from the females family (by male family member here i mean father, grandfather, brother...etc).. (and by being alone, it doesnt only refer to male and female being alone in a room for example, but also refers to being (for example) at the movies with a guy who isnt family (refer above for what i mean when i say 'family')

`Umar quotes the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: “Not one of you should meet a woman alone unless she is accompanied by a relative Mahram” (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim).

In Islam a women whom ur not married to is considered "unlawful" (is that the word?) for u to "date" or the like!

and if u want to know why a male and female are not permitted to be in a room alone then read this hadith:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is also quoted as saying: “Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them” (Reported by At-Tirmidhi)

And reading the folowing verses:

[size=+2]"[/size]Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do. [size=+2]"[/size]

[size=+2]"[/size]And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss.[size=+2]"[/size]


Surah 24 Verses 30 - 31

if lowering our gaze is what we as Muslims should do, then i hardly think Islam would permit dating, and indeed it doesnt (well duh! u already know that i guess)

I dont think ive answered the qestion to the sufficiency u may have liked/wanted, although I'd like to read into alot of this myself, theres still alot to learn about Islam, but neverthless, i think my response should give u a brief indication of why dating isnt permitted...

(oh and by the way, i actualy typed up a response about half an hour ago, but my finger slipped and it disappeared... meh!)

EDIT: hmm I guess Kulazzi and Tempco already beat me to it!

 

[ur_inner_child]

and if u want to know why a male and female are not permitted to be in a room alone then read this hadith:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is also quoted as saying: “Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them” (Reported by At-Tirmidhi)

its a very small thing I just want to clarify. Small, but necessary.

How do you take that passage “Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them” into the RULE that a man cannot be with a woman alone? Satan/temptation may come into play, it certainly opens doors to 'sin', but shouldn't God be even more pleased if that situation arised, and neither the man or woman delved into such temptations?

Why forbid it entirely, when there are people that can control themselves, that there are men and women who are capable of being friends without anything sexual? Why the blanket? Much like when a child is forbidden to leave home, in fear that they might do drugs. But what should even be far more pleasing is that the child decides not to take drugs, even when offered to do so.

Why has it become a rule? Why did the prophet not say "DO NOT let a man be alone with a woman, for satan etc", forgive me for the ignorance of this quote, but how does it equate to it being a RULE?

I mean, I take music lessons at uni privately with a male - or is this rule semi-flexible?

 

[tempco]

thats kinda cute. are parents in general usual very open about these things? can a man be offered a second chance if say, he embarrassed himself the first time?

In general, yes, Muslim parents tend to be open about marriage, and getting to know the potential suitor. As for first impressions, it's quite flexible. I mean, you can get stuck with an anal in-law, while on the other hand, you can end up with good folk.

I mean, I take music lessons at uni privately with a male - or is this rule semi-flexible?

IMO, if it's a necessity, then yes, the rule can be bent. I mean, I tutor a year 8 Muslim girl for example. Some families would be comfortable with that, while others wouldn't.

 

[ur_inner_child]

In general, yes, Muslim parents tend to be open about marriage, and getting to know the potential suitor. As for first impressions, it's quite flexible. I mean, you can get stuck with an anal in-law, while on the other hand, you can end up with good folk.


IMO, if it's a necessity, then yes, the rule can be bent. I mean, I tutor a year 8 Muslim girl for example. Some families would be comfortable with that, while others wouldn't.

thanks, i really appreciated your response.

 

[tempco]

thanks, i really appreciated your response.

Welcome!

 

[physician]

In general, yes, Muslim parents tend to be open about marriage, and getting to know the potential suitor. As for first impressions, it's quite flexible. I mean, you can get stuck with an anal in-law, while on the other hand, you can end up with good folk.


IMO, if it's a necessity, then yes, the rule can be bent. I mean, I tutor a year 8 Muslim girl for example. Some families would be comfortable with that, while others wouldn't.

Agreed!

Oh and politik, were not even refering to the Quran, were speaking about a hadith (i.e a saying of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him)

 

[ur_inner_child]

1000th post.

I assume that its a rule because they take the Quran as a literal lawbook.

cant you see it in a literal point of view that satan is with them, yes its all true etc but he may not influence at all?

"Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them”

no where in this sentence, in literal sake, does it say that you CANNOT be alone with the opposite sex. Moreso, it is stating that Satan will be there.

eg me and my music tutor. Satan's there, or however you wish, but he doesnt stand a chance in influencing us at all........

 

[SashatheMan]

Secular Arab Woman Gives condemns Muslim extremist & radicals, defends the USA & Jews! on Al Jazeera

Check this little video out. She speaks good truth


http://vervelsky.com/news/arabictv.asp

 

[tempco]

Secular Arab Woman Gives condemns Muslim extremist & radicals, defends the USA & Jews! on Al Jazeera

Check this little video out. She speaks good truth


http://vervelsky.com/news/arabictv.asp

Wow, how original. She's focusing on the loud minority and ignoring the peaceful majority.

She also labels Islam as the reason why certain Muslim groups react violently to certain things, yet she fails to highlight the education levels, socio-economic environment and so on. What's the point of comparing the behaviour of peoples in third world countries and those that have the quality of life and opportunities of first world nations?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

She also labels Islam as the reason why certain Muslim groups react violently to certain things, yet she fails to highlight the education levels, socio-economic environment and so on.

Ok then explain why it is that muslims with the same level of socio-economic disadvantage in say UK (to other groups) react in more violent ways than the other groups?

 

[tempco]

cant you see it in a literal point of view that satan is with them, yes its all true etc but he may not influence at all?

"Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them”

no where in this sentence, in literal sake, does it say that you CANNOT be alone with the opposite sex. Moreso, it is stating that Satan will be there.

eg me and my music tutor. Satan's there, or however you wish, but he doesnt stand a chance in influencing us at all........

As far as I know, there are other pieces of evidence that support such a view.

Here's a link which addresses the issue: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=3&ID=7024&CATE=470

 

[tempco]

Ok then explain why it is that muslims with the same level of socio-economic disadvantage in say UK (to other groups) react in more violent ways than the other groups?

There were violent riots in the UK? All I remember was a peaceful one in London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4726472.stm

 

[Sweets]

With regards to the when a man is with a woman, satan is the third person there or whatver. What happened to the idea that the hijab is supposed to allow women to enter traditionally male domains and be judged for the content of her speech etc etc? I think it comes back to the spirit of the law, rather then literalist interpretations, yeh but that's just my view.

And of course Hadith's themself are subject to their own politics as well, ie the prevelance of a high patriarchal interpretation of Islam in what for lack of better expression i'll call the 'intervening' period. So I suppose we have to consider that too

 

[MiuMiu]

There were violent riots in the UK? All I remember was a peaceful one in London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4726472.stm

There was a peaceful protest when I was in London about those cartoons, but London has seen violent muslim protests in the past.

 

[Kulazzi]

what would you call something that may not lead to marriage, but moreso an exploration and a learning experience of what you may want in a relationship, that involves no sexual activities at the time? To be incredibly good friends and learn to co-operate as partners that are attracted to each other, something which is far different to learning what it is like to co-operate with friends. There is far more emotional discovery involved.

I think that's allowable. From your post, you're asking if it's ok to do more "dating" to find out more about each other? Well, if there is an interest in each other then we have the engagement (as a cautious step towards marriage) where both can meet each other and have several conversations (but no physical contact) privately if they wish, and if after some time one loses interest in the other, then he/she can call it off.