Ngyuen = hero ? (2 Viewers)

[poloktim]

what i dont understand is why people like lawforever, support the death penalty in singapore just because it is a law in that country. do you dumbasses not realise that even official laws can be questioned no matter what country they're in? just because its a law, does that mean everyone is meant to shut the fuck up and accept it?

example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateqeh_Rajabi

hey look, it was a legal decision to hang this 16yr old girl in iran, i guess by lawforevers reasoning, we got to respect that decision right dumbass?

nguyen or no nguyen, ive always been against the death penalty, i dont give a shit if its law or not, laws can be questioned, why can't you understand this?

now it's all oppinion when it comes to the death penalty, it been done to death already, but when you are arguing FOR capital punishment, try base your oppinion on something else rather then "its their law and we gotta respect it", fuck singapore.

Hah! I couldn't agree more. I'm even more reminded of the phrase "I'm not racist but..." when thinking of this case. Whenever somebody says the aforementioned phrase, you just know they're going to say something that will brand them as a racist, but are trying to justify themselves (and often fail).

At the moment "I'm opposed to the death penalty but..." is the phrase of choice. It's interesting because the people saying it often end it with something like "... it's not our country." or some other waffle. They say they're opposed to the death penalty, then come out and say something which brands them as a moral vacuum, while thinking they're covered.

Using the "it's their country, therefore it's their laws and we shouldn't question them" excuse is a piss-poor attempt at being politically correct. We didn't like how the law was being run in Afghanistan or Iraq, but instead of respecting the legal institutions there, we marched in and changed them. Sadly, the new democratic Iraq has capital punishment, but we still changed how the law was run in those countries because we didn't like them. Why didn't we respect those laws? We saw them as unjust. Why do so many Australians oppose the capital punishment law in Singapore? We see it as unjust.

As for the talk of letting Ngyuen free, which I've seen on the opinion page, letters etc. I think that's a bit of a wrong idea. He did break the law and therefore should've been punished with a lengthy prison sentence. Singapore says capital punishment acts as a deterrent, while Corby's twenty, then fifteen year sentence has taught many people to lock up their personal belongings when they fly.

 

[erawamai]

Using the "it's their country, therefore it's their laws and we shouldn't question them" excuse is a piss-poor attempt at being politically correct. We didn't like how the law was being run in Afghanistan or Iraq, but instead of respecting the legal institutions there, we marched in and changed them. Sadly, the new democratic Iraq has capital punishment, but we still changed how the law was run in those countries because we didn't like them. Why didn't we respect those laws? We saw them as unjust. Why do so many Australians oppose the capital punishment law in Singapore? We see it as unjust.

As for the talk of letting Ngyuen free, which I've seen on the opinion page, letters etc. I think that's a bit of a wrong idea. He did break the law and therefore should've been punished with a lengthy prison sentence. Singapore says capital punishment acts as a deterrent, while Corby's twenty, then fifteen year sentence has taught many people to lock up their personal belongings when they fly.

I agree with poloko.

There was an argument about this in one of these threads. It's a simply an argument between cultural reletivism and cultural univeralism. Cultural respect or reletivism has it boundaries. Not EVERTHING is protected by respect for culture. The example of Afghanistan is one example where cultural reletivism can be negative. Another example are the cultural practices of stoning women and female circumcision. Are all you cultural respectors out there going to tell me these things are good and should be tolerated?

Also cultural reletivism assumes that cultures are stagnent. Certain left wingers make this mistake with aboriginal culture. Culture is not stagnent. Culture evolves when it comes into contact with other cultures.

Respect for other cultures would prevent the criticism of those cultural practices. However the death penality is NOT culturally specific to Singapore. As such people cannot claim that it is disrespectful to critically examine the policy.

 

[veterandoggy]

that's a shithouse analogy because there is an obvious difference between imprisonment and execution
the universal abhorrence of capital punishment can't be ignored and in this case appears to be trying to transgress national boundaries

its a shit analogy, but it has the same emaning behind it: you want to go to a country, you must abide by its rules to stay in it.

 

[poloktim]

"Some other waffle"? If what has been said has been "some other waffle" then i hate to think what your arguement is, because yours is a whole lot less justified then the pro-death penalty people.

I presented a light argument against capital punishment to keep my post on topic. The main purpose is to criticise others' opinions, especially those who want to be moral vacuums and then try to hide it.

 

[lawforever]

Of course its exceptionalism. All nations look after their own citizens above citizens of other nations. As aformentioned NATIONALITY AND THE NATION STATE STILL EXIST.

see? I already pointed out that Van Ngyuen's supporters are using "death sentence is inappropriate" as excuses since they can't find other ones. Death penalty on Van Ngyuen is inappropriate and death penalty on the rest of the people don't matter. This is finally confirmed today. It is another tragedy which is worse than the death of Ngyuen. Maybe some school teachers need to be responsible for that.

 

[erawamai]

Death penalty on Van Ngyuen is inappropriate and death penalty on the rest of the people don't matter.

Who said that?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

see? I already pointed out that Van Ngyuen's supporters are using "death sentence is inappropriate" as excuses since they can't find other ones. Death penalty on Van Ngyuen is inappropriate and death penalty on the rest of the people don't matter. This is finally confirmed today. It is another tragedy which is worse than the death of Ngyuen. Maybe some school teachers need to be responsible for that.

Certainly some people who are perhaps pro-death penalty are only saying it's inappropriate in the case of van nyugen (not necessarily because of his nationality, but more-so his circumstances... his nationality just brought the case to the attention of australian's because we, as members of the nation of australia are directly involved... there is currency/proximity)..

Death penalty on Van Ngyuen is inappropriate and death penalty on the rest of the people don't matter.

Well again, I think you would find that if they had the cases of other people in similar situations presented to them you would have the same split. However, as he is a part of our nation, ourselves as fellow citizens of the nation are much more interested because we can affect our own government to put pressure on singapore, and it is much closer to home.

 

[Comrade nathan]

What media are you talking about that called Nqyuen a hero? I have not yet seen any.

 

[Jiga]

What media are you talking about that called Nqyuen a hero? I have not yet seen any.

I havent heard it, but I think its more the portrayal.

As for the case, it just shows that Singapore is fucked, how the hell can you execute someone for drug related offences....especially when they help your investigations and their are extenuating circumstances involved. As for their little idea about sending a strong message....I think the sentence of life imprisonment aka Life Butt Raping in one of asias finest prisons is a strong enough message

 

[chochibi]

no one's a hero. they both know that they did the wrong thing.. but cant change it. if they let him go then the whole of singapore would be in outrage. just as australia is now.

as much as i think he shouldnt have died, and singapore shouldn't impose the death penalty, i still think that they both have their dignity.

australia has no right to say that they should impose australian laws because he's australian, because we dont impose other countries' laws on people from other countries.

ngyuen was a great guy. ive read all about it. but a guy with heroin strapped to his body is nowhere a hero. if you think so, you need to re-evaluate the word hero.

 

[Ova The hILLS]

bravo terrblespellor

 

[0o0]

People have put Van Nguyen, a drug pusher, in the same area as people like Australian P.O.W's killed in Chongy in Singapore. This is sickening.

For anyone to portray Nguyen as a hero, is sickening.

WHAT IS HIS NAME? FOR GOD'S SAKE. I can't even get a grasp on his freakin' name!

Nguyen Tuong Van.

its been mentioned before, no-one has ever called van nguyen a hero. the guy who started this thread is a dumbass making shit up, everyone knows he is a criminal drug dealer, some are a little upset about the death penalty.

just because he was put in Changi prison, doesn't mean anyone holds him in high regard as the POWs that were there in WWII.

 

[frog12986]

The media have definitely portrayed Nguyen in a sympathetic light, reasons for which are based around the inappropriate nature of execution as a punishment of the committed crime. However, the portrayal has failed to maintain the severity of his crime in its content. Over and over we were exposed to protests of sorts, candlelight vigils and 'shrines' honouring the individual and denunciating the punishment.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but weren't similar portrayals emphasised throughout the grieving process of the events September 11, the Bali bombings and other circumstances in which innocent human lives were lost. How can any individual justify placing Nguyen in the same category of those who suffered loss of life or injury in these other tragic circumstances. A heroic portrayal? To an extent; however the were definitely sympathetic overtones which tended to ignore the true reasons for Nguyens execution

...the message should have been based aroung the denunciation of execution in accordance with the consequences of drug trafficking and related crimes, as oppose to the denunciation of drug crime in conjunction with the sympathy for Nguyen with a total disregard of the issue of drugs altogether..

 

[sparkl3z]

The media have definitely portrayed Nguyen in a sympathetic light, reasons for which are based around the inappropriate nature of execution as a punishment of the committed crime. However, the portrayal has failed to maintain the severity of his crime in its content. Over and over we were exposed to protests of sorts, candlelight vigils and 'shrines' honouring the individual and denunciating the punishment.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but weren't similar portrayals emphasised throughout the grieving process of the events September 11, the Bali bombings and other circumstances in which innocent human lives were lost. How can any individual justify placing Nguyen in the same category of those who suffered loss of life or injury in these other tragic circumstances. A heroic portrayal? To an extent; however the were definitely sympathetic overtones which tended to ignore the true reasons for Nguyens execution

...the message should have been based aroung the denunciation of execution in accordance with the consequences of drug trafficking and related crimes, as oppose to the denunciation of drug crime in conjunction with the sympathy for Nguyen with a total disregard of the issue of drugs altogether..

well summed up. that's what i meant before.

 

[zeek]

Stop your complaining for fucks sake! Some of the public, almost ALL of the media and the politicians have made Australia look like a whinging and sobbing little bitch!

If it's there country then it is their own decision to execute them or not. Please stfu and do not try to argue with me on this because doing so would only make me think that you are a whinging and sobbing bitch!

Alexander Downer's disgust at how the executioner discussed the procedure of hanging people just showed how retarded the politicians really are, and how they are making us look bad. Big deal if he talked about the procedure! WHY THE FUCK DO YOU CARE!!!! ITS HIS JOB YOU STUPID MAN!!!

Using the "it's their country, therefore it's their laws and we shouldn't question them" excuse is a piss-poor attempt at being politically correct. We didn't like how the law was being run in Afghanistan or Iraq, but instead of respecting the legal institutions there, we marched in and changed them.

See that? That just shows how the coalition bully other countries into changing their laws to meet their needs. Has Iraq/Afghanistan/Singapore ever asked the Australian Government to change their laws? No.

You see... people like you (referring to those who are complaining about Nguyen's death) make Australia and the rest of the Australians look like shit. Stop your fucking complaining about the case... get over it... and stop embarrasing our nation and Singapore!!!!

 

[ogmzergrush]

Stop your complaining for fucks sake! Some of the public, almost ALL of the media and the politicians have made Australia look like a whinging and sobbing little bitch!

If it's there country then it is their own decision to execute them or not. Please stfu and do not try to argue with me on this because doing so would only make me think that you are a whinging and sobbing bitch!

Alexander Downer's disgust at how the executioner discussed the procedure of hanging people just showed how retarded the politicians really are, and how they are making us look bad. Big deal if he talked about the procedure! WHY THE FUCK DO YOU CARE!!!! ITS HIS JOB YOU STUPID MAN!!!



See that? That just shows how the coalition bully other countries into changing their laws to meet their needs. Has Iraq/Afghanistan/Singapore ever asked the Australian Government to change their laws? No.

You see... people like you (referring to those who are complaining about Nguyen's death) make Australia and the rest of the Australians look like shit. Stop your fucking complaining about the case... get over it... and stop embarrasing our nation and Singapore!!!!

I like how people like you make us look open-minded, willing to debate issues intelligently, and tolerant of differences in opinion.

 

[Scanorama]

Ngyuen = convicted criminal.

 

[erawamai]

The media have definitely portrayed Nguyen in a sympathetic light, reasons for which are based around the inappropriate nature of execution as a punishment of the committed crime. However, the portrayal has failed to maintain the severity of his crime in its content. Over and over we were exposed to protests of sorts, candlelight vigils and 'shrines' honouring the individual and denunciating the punishment.

I think that is the fault of the media itself rather than Nguyen Tuong Van, his lawyers or his family. Lex Lasry did note that Van should not go unpunished. LEx Lesry summed it up pretty well when he said that Van had made a mistake and paid a too higher price.

His other lawyer, McMahon, also pointed out that Van is not a martyr.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but weren't similar portrayals emphasised throughout the grieving process of the events September 11, the Bali bombings and other circumstances in which innocent human lives were lost. How can any individual justify placing Nguyen in the same category of those who suffered loss of life or injury in these other tragic circumstances. A heroic portrayal? To an extent; however the were definitely sympathetic overtones which tended to ignore the true reasons for Nguyens execution

Firstly I think the 'outpouring of grief' was stronger for the Bali bombings. It must be remembered that almost half of the Australian population was in favour of his execution. This was not the case after the Bali bombings.

I don't think a minutes silence was required at the time. I think most Australian's stopped at that moment to think about it and that really was enough.

I will be very interesting to see the Australian response when some of the Bali nine are executed.

...the message should have been based aroung the denunciation of execution in accordance with the consequences of drug trafficking and related crimes, as oppose[d] to the denunciation of drug crime in conjunction with the sympathy for Nguyen with a total disregard of the issue of drugs altogether..

 

[walrusbear]

*buzz* Wrong. But thanks for playing.

universal in the sense that it transcends national boundaries
not that everyone in the whole world supports death penalty
there are, of course, plenty of stupid people who think it's a good

 

[Iron]

a) I was surprised that 'Changi Prision' wasnt exploited more for the Australian audience.

b) A bit revolted at ch9's undercover footage of him being prepared in the coffin.

c) Couldnt help thinking that the media post-Bali were keen to cover Asian-Australian crims in order to refute the racism charge