soha
a splendid one to behold
he does charity work_Benji_ said:
and i dont doubt it
Opinions on Refugees (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter _Benji_
- Start date
and i dont doubt it
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
Refugee's should be given refugee status.
ILLEGAL Immigrants should be sent home.
There should be more of the 'housing' developments (which we do have) for women and children, however you can't totally separate families and such..
These cases should move through the courts faster (somehow).
ILLEGAL Immigrants should be sent home.
There should be more of the 'housing' developments (which we do have) for women and children, however you can't totally separate families and such..
These cases should move through the courts faster (somehow).
White Rabbit
Bloody Shitcakes
I think people need to realise there is two sides to this argument and that both sides pick and choose what the 'facts' are. As you seem to have Benji. You don't want the the truth, all you're interested in is proving a point. Like most people in the debate, you totaly disregard anything that says the Australian Govenment isn't a horrible monster.
You say we should just let everyone onto community release - have you even thought of the ramifications of this? Many maybe geuine refugees, however it isn't that easy to determine, there isn't a magical button you can press to discover who's legit. It's the ones who aren't genuine who they will loose track of, who will go out on community release and will disapear.
I'll also point out, as you have neglected to do so, while Sweden may take in a fair few refugees, Australia has done her part too, moreso than most european nations or the USA.
Don't you think Australia should be focusing on our own problems? I was raised on the single parent pension and it was far from easy for my mum. We were put on the waiting list for housing commission when I was 6. I'm now 19 (next week), and we never got an offer. Seeing as how mum had approx $500 a fortnight to raise 3 kids on, I think we had a genuine need. If theres one family theres plently more -- Public housing is a problem for Australia, one of many regarding social welfare - this like this need attention too. What about the drought? It's ruining people, and is a very big problem within rural australia. That needs support.
My point is, as terrible as you may think it is, the Australian Government needs to put Australians and Australia first.
You say we should just let everyone onto community release - have you even thought of the ramifications of this? Many maybe geuine refugees, however it isn't that easy to determine, there isn't a magical button you can press to discover who's legit. It's the ones who aren't genuine who they will loose track of, who will go out on community release and will disapear.
I'll also point out, as you have neglected to do so, while Sweden may take in a fair few refugees, Australia has done her part too, moreso than most european nations or the USA.
Don't you think Australia should be focusing on our own problems? I was raised on the single parent pension and it was far from easy for my mum. We were put on the waiting list for housing commission when I was 6. I'm now 19 (next week), and we never got an offer. Seeing as how mum had approx $500 a fortnight to raise 3 kids on, I think we had a genuine need. If theres one family theres plently more -- Public housing is a problem for Australia, one of many regarding social welfare - this like this need attention too. What about the drought? It's ruining people, and is a very big problem within rural australia. That needs support.
My point is, as terrible as you may think it is, the Australian Government needs to put Australians and Australia first.
_Benji_
Member
I am hardly suggesting we let everyone into the country and into the community! What I am suggesting is that there is a genuine need to change the current immigration system. Do you honestly see there being no problem with the current system when so many people, including the UN have condemned the use of mandatory detention and pointed out its flaws, including the psychological impacts on detainees?
You have a valid point, the Australian Social Welfare system is appalling, there are many things the Government needs to reform, though I absolutely doubt that will happen under this current Government, but I see no reason why our government can't deliver a social welfare system and maintain its humanitarian international obligations (take a look at some of the progressive european countries). Perhaps one could see the need to divert priorities from *cough* defense *cough*.
The only point I wish to further is that maybe we should consider the actual position of refugees, and then perhaps we may realise that locking them up in desert camps maybe isnt the most effective thing, let alone humane or economically sustainable.
You have a valid point, the Australian Social Welfare system is appalling, there are many things the Government needs to reform, though I absolutely doubt that will happen under this current Government, but I see no reason why our government can't deliver a social welfare system and maintain its humanitarian international obligations (take a look at some of the progressive european countries). Perhaps one could see the need to divert priorities from *cough* defense *cough*.
The only point I wish to further is that maybe we should consider the actual position of refugees, and then perhaps we may realise that locking them up in desert camps maybe isnt the most effective thing, let alone humane or economically sustainable.
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
Benji, you propose... that we don't have mandatory detention? 
_Benji_
Member
Im proposing that we dont have prolonged detention. I think it is necessary for the initial processing (note the initial...not drawn out 3 yr kinda stuff) but not with the current conditions.
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
Ok... and how exactly do we do this?
( i agree 100%, faster detention process, better conditions ).
( i agree 100%, faster detention process, better conditions ).
White Rabbit
Bloody Shitcakes
Yes, that wuld be great. But like NTB asked, how exaclty do to plan of achiving it? Have your opinion, it's a vaild one, the only problem is so many people who argue against manditory detetion fail to give plausable alternatives. They ignore so many facts and problems.
You say not everyone should be let into the community, but how are the authorities suppose to differentiate? There isn't a 'test' that takes 2 minutes that can tell whos legit and whos not..
You say not everyone should be let into the community, but how are the authorities suppose to differentiate? There isn't a 'test' that takes 2 minutes that can tell whos legit and whos not..
White Rabbit
Bloody Shitcakes
Xayma said:
True that.
And separting children from their parents in manditory detetntion, aren't we just opening the doors for another stolen generation? Many people believed they were doing the right thing when they removed half caste children from aboriginal communities too. (The English stolen generation didn't have an excuse at all)
_Benji_
Member
oh wow, your willing to have a constructive discussion on this? amazing
Ok first we get rid of this government and elect Labor on the condition that they alter their immigration policies (and several others..l.).
No, ok..... I think we need to have a close look at systems of Sweden etc and put things into perspective.
We hardly take any refugees per person in comparison to many other lesser developed nations, and they are not being "swamped by boat people".
There is no doubt we need to create a better environment for these people whilst they go through initial processing. I mean locking children behind razor wire?! Children attempting suicide and Self harm?!
I think the main thing is to abolish the Pacific Solution, the money spent on paying Naru etc can be better spent a) making detention centres more pleasant and b) making processing quicker (employing people etc).
Basically detention is so expensive for what it is, the funds can be better spent on creating a better system....a more fair and humane system.
What are your thoughts anyway?
Ok first we get rid of this government and elect Labor on the condition that they alter their immigration policies (and several others..l.).
No, ok..... I think we need to have a close look at systems of Sweden etc and put things into perspective.
We hardly take any refugees per person in comparison to many other lesser developed nations, and they are not being "swamped by boat people".
There is no doubt we need to create a better environment for these people whilst they go through initial processing. I mean locking children behind razor wire?! Children attempting suicide and Self harm?!
I think the main thing is to abolish the Pacific Solution, the money spent on paying Naru etc can be better spent a) making detention centres more pleasant and b) making processing quicker (employing people etc).
Basically detention is so expensive for what it is, the funds can be better spent on creating a better system....a more fair and humane system.
What are your thoughts anyway?
_Benji_
Member
I dont think children should be removed from their parents, but I think you're going a little over the top by suggesting this will be another stolen generation, or even drawing the analogy.
I know in the universal declaration of human rights (article 25) Women and Children are entitled to special care, but I think that everyone deserves equally humane treatment.
I know in the universal declaration of human rights (article 25) Women and Children are entitled to special care, but I think that everyone deserves equally humane treatment.
White Rabbit
Bloody Shitcakes
I don't think it's far off. People want Children removed from their parents because they'd be better off not being in detention - they believe they know better. It just comes across in much the same way the Stolen Generation did, I can see the simarlarties.
You find lesser developed nations have much more to gain from refugees - much like we did when we were becoming a developed nation - we needed unskilled labours for the likes of the Snowy River Scheme. Developing countries have similar needs for unskilled labour. I haven't looked into stats recently but when I was in Year 11 and Year 12 (2002-03) we were taking in a fair ammount of refugees, esspecially compared to other developed nations (Scandinavia aside).
I think the whole issue is sensationalised by both sides - those against manditory detention by saying 'oh no, the kiddies are hurting themselves' (not to make fun of it, they need help if it's genuine) and the other side either spurting racist comments, saying they're all terrorists and such. It's hard to get facts and form a real opinion on the issue. I'll say yes, the process should be sped up, the government should try and improve conditions to meet UN standards (I don't know if they are or they aren't. I've never been inside a detention centre) and that children inside the centres should be protected as i'm sure there are shady characters within the centres. It's a complex issue that I don't see any clear answer to, amd I doubt we'll get one soon.
Labour I doubt would do much about the refugees. They'd, assuming the revert to their roots, represent working class australia, many of whom don't give a toss about refugees, but are more interested in workplace reform, and Industrial relations.
You find lesser developed nations have much more to gain from refugees - much like we did when we were becoming a developed nation - we needed unskilled labours for the likes of the Snowy River Scheme. Developing countries have similar needs for unskilled labour. I haven't looked into stats recently but when I was in Year 11 and Year 12 (2002-03) we were taking in a fair ammount of refugees, esspecially compared to other developed nations (Scandinavia aside).
I think the whole issue is sensationalised by both sides - those against manditory detention by saying 'oh no, the kiddies are hurting themselves' (not to make fun of it, they need help if it's genuine) and the other side either spurting racist comments, saying they're all terrorists and such. It's hard to get facts and form a real opinion on the issue. I'll say yes, the process should be sped up, the government should try and improve conditions to meet UN standards (I don't know if they are or they aren't. I've never been inside a detention centre) and that children inside the centres should be protected as i'm sure there are shady characters within the centres. It's a complex issue that I don't see any clear answer to, amd I doubt we'll get one soon.
Labour I doubt would do much about the refugees. They'd, assuming the revert to their roots, represent working class australia, many of whom don't give a toss about refugees, but are more interested in workplace reform, and Industrial relations.
therata
New Member
Labor had an identical position on the issue of mandatory detention for unauthorised entrants as the Liberals throughout the 1990s, continuing this support through to October 2002, even then only slightly softening its stance. Labor established mandatory detention policy in Australia in 1992.
therata
New Member
Shady Characters
From DIMIA statistics, only 11 of the 13,000 people who sought asylum in Australia were rejected on character grounds.
Only one of these was considered a security risk, and he arrived by plane.
Interestingly the people involved in the 2001 September 11 attacks, arrived in the US on first class flights with valid visa's.
From DIMIA statistics, only 11 of the 13,000 people who sought asylum in Australia were rejected on character grounds.
Only one of these was considered a security risk, and he arrived by plane.
Interestingly the people involved in the 2001 September 11 attacks, arrived in the US on first class flights with valid visa's.
_Benji_
Member
Hence why Labor needs to reform its policy.
IMHO, Labor is clearly the party which values social welfare more.
However, there is a current skills shortage in Australia now, even though we are a developed nation and all, so haven't we got something to gain from this unskilled labour?
There is an interesting case study in Young where Afghan refugees basically saved the towns only large revenue generating business, the abattoir, because they had noone else to work there. (story in a nutshell).
Yes both sides are sensationalised, they always are, and the fact is its extremely hard for people to actually find out what's going on in the detention centres (and esp naru which journalists etc are banned from), as the Gov seems to have covered up the issue as best it can.
IMHO, Labor is clearly the party which values social welfare more.
However, there is a current skills shortage in Australia now, even though we are a developed nation and all, so haven't we got something to gain from this unskilled labour?
There is an interesting case study in Young where Afghan refugees basically saved the towns only large revenue generating business, the abattoir, because they had noone else to work there. (story in a nutshell).
Yes both sides are sensationalised, they always are, and the fact is its extremely hard for people to actually find out what's going on in the detention centres (and esp naru which journalists etc are banned from), as the Gov seems to have covered up the issue as best it can.
_Benji_
Member
Yes its rather interesting that these people who are FLEEING ie trying to get away from, dictatorships- enemies of the "coalition" and terrorist groups and the like have in fact been labeled as terrorists themselves. Bizarre twist somewhere there.therata said:
I know if i was a terrorist i certainly wouldnt risk my life on a leaky boat that may or may not reach Australia only to be thrown in a detention centre upon arrival, which i may or may not be deported from. I mean geez, terrorist groups are a little more organised than that, they can organise fake docs and a 1st class plane ticket.
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
Interesting that people brought up giving preferential treatment to women, and also splitting up families (as i have used these points myself in the past).
Also interesting that Benji said "elect labor ROFL" , Labor set up mandatory detention in our country (and rightly so), and fully supports it. Benji, that's because you see welfare as necessarily a good thing. I suggest you look for my post on "welfare state vs ownership state".
Also interesting that Benji said "elect labor ROFL" , Labor set up mandatory detention in our country (and rightly so), and fully supports it. Benji, that's because you see welfare as necessarily a good thing. I suggest you look for my post on "welfare state vs ownership state".
_Benji_
Member
Umm where did i say that?¿ (the ROFL). Yes, as I said before, I know Labor did this, hence I also said that i think labor's policy of support...or indifference on the Gov's policy needs to change. I wouldn't elect labor on the basis of their immigration policy... good god no!Not-That-Bright said:
Where's that post?
A good social welfare system should both provide support to those who need it and support them to not need it.