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Physics internal scaled down... (1 Viewer)

ajdlinux

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Are you suggesting that your shouldn't be getting individual task marks or just not getting the final total mark sent in?

My school doesn't give students the final mark at all but they can work it out as they have the necessary information anyway.
I've been told by my school that Board regulations stop them from telling us the total mark, but we're allowed to know our rank and all task marks, obviously. They think it's a stupid rule since we can just work it out ourselves anyway, but I guess it's just to stop misunderstandings like this coming up after results day.
 

sinophile

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You don't 'drag the others down' unless your external happened to be the highest from your school. This is because the BOS takes the highest external mark, and adjusts everyone from your school according to THAT.
 

cem

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I've been told by my school that Board regulations stop them from telling us the total mark, but we're allowed to know our rank and all task marks, obviously. They think it's a stupid rule since we can just work it out ourselves anyway, but I guess it's just to stop misunderstandings like this coming up after results day.

That is correct.

However schools can actually change the marks so long as they treat all students the same e.g. they can apply a standard deviation or add 5 marks to all students etc. That is why students shouldn't get told their final raw total as schools can and do change them for whatever reason.
 

Thecorey0

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That is not what I hear, I've always read/been told that it is how the entire cohort goes, not just the top mark.
If you are ranked first, your cohort does not affect you. So if you were ranked first and your assesment marks were "scaled" down as you put, it just means that you bombed the exams.

As far as I know, lets say there was a class of 4.
A teacher sends in these marks: 95, 90, 85, 80
A teacher could also send in 25, 20, 15, 10
Since the gaps are the same, the numbers themself - not the gaps and/or rank, mean nothing unless you have a misadventure.
 
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adcommo

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this also happened to me in visual arts

my ass. mark was high 90s and i was ranked first and then got 92 for both internal and exam mark...im still really happy tho but i am a little curious.

i still dont understand why they wud pull the ass. mark down?? i know that since ur first and everythin, but why cant my ass. mark be 96 and then my exam mark still 92 and then i get a 94 instead??? why do they have to be the same???
 

Thecorey0

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this also happened to me in visual arts

my ass. mark was high 90s and i was ranked first and then got 92 for both internal and exam mark...im still really happy tho but i am a little curious.

i still dont understand why they wud pull the ass. mark down?? i know that since ur first and everythin, but why cant my ass. mark be 96 and then my exam mark still 92 and then i get a 94 instead??? why do they have to be the same???
If you are ranked first: Top exam mark = your assessment mark.

They do this to try to even out the assessment marks from different schools. Some schools have hard assessments, some have easy assessments. This is the way the Board attempts to account for that. If you are curious, I recommend you take a look in the technical forum on this website, or visit 'How your HSC works' on the Board of Studies website, or pm someone more experienced and knowledgeable like Cem.
 

ajdlinux

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this also happened to me in visual arts

my ass. mark was high 90s and i was ranked first and then got 92 for both internal and exam mark...im still really happy tho but i am a little curious.

i still dont understand why they wud pull the ass. mark down?? i know that since ur first and everythin, but why cant my ass. mark be 96 and then my exam mark still 92 and then i get a 94 instead??? why do they have to be the same???
If they didn't do that, then what's to stop teachers from marking their assessments really easily and making sure there's always someone getting 95%+?
 

boganxcore

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If you are ranked first: Top exam mark = your assessment mark.

They do this to try to even out the assessment marks from different schools. Some schools have hard assessments, some have easy assessments. This is the way the Board attempts to account for that. If you are curious, I recommend you take a look in the technical forum on this website, or visit 'How your HSC works' on the Board of Studies website, or pm someone more experienced and knowledgeable like Cem.
ohhh okay so thats why my ext 2 english assessment mark was higher than i expected, seeing as i didnt get the highest 'exam' mark
 

Dr. Zoidberg

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If they didn't do that, then what's to stop teachers from marking their assessments really easily and making sure there's always someone getting 95%+?
+1

I scored 66% in trials and ended up with 91 for my hsc mark.

If this system wasn't in place, i would have been totally screwed :S

Makes it fair for schools that set tests harder than others.
 

adcommo

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so basically if ur first....ur overall mark will be determined by your exam mark true??? ur actual ass. mark doesnt mean anything? watever u get in the exam mark, thats ur mark?
 

ajdlinux

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so basically if ur first....ur overall mark will be determined by your exam mark true??? ur actual ass. mark doesnt mean anything? watever u get in the exam mark, thats ur mark?
No, your assessment mark is equal to the highest exam mark of anyone in your class. So if you bomb the exam, but someone else gets 95 in the exam, you get 95 as your assessment mark.
 

Lazarus

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I've been told by my school that Board regulations stop them from telling us the total mark, but we're allowed to know our rank and all task marks, obviously. They think it's a stupid rule since we can just work it out ourselves anyway, but I guess it's just to stop misunderstandings like this coming up after results day.
That is correct.
With respect, I think this is misleading. BOSBOY made a similar comment here.

Whilst the Board advises schools not to provide students with the total assessment mark submitted to the Board (because the mark is subject to moderation), schools are not prevented from providing that information to students, and in certain circumstances may be under a legal obligation to do so.

Most schools are subject to privacy legislation and access to personal information must generally be given upon request. I do not think there is any basis upon which the total assessment mark could properly be withheld.

In practice though students are generally not aware of their rights and schools do whatever they like.
 

ajdlinux

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With respect, I think this is misleading. BOSBOY made a similar comment here.

Whilst the Board advises schools not to provide students with the total assessment mark submitted to the Board (because the mark is subject to moderation), schools are not prevented from providing that information to students, and in certain circumstances may be under a legal obligation to do so.

Most schools are subject to privacy legislation and access to personal information must generally be given upon request. I do not think there is any basis upon which the total assessment mark could properly be withheld.

In practice though students are generally not aware of their rights and schools do whatever they like.
Do you have a copy of the official Board advice regarding this? (Is it in the ACE Manual?)
 

cem

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Yes, in Section 8.13.17 of the ACE Manual.

It's also at the bottom of Section 3.1.8 in this document:
HSC assessment in a standards-referenced framework - A Guide to Best Practice - Board of Studies NSW
The following is a direct extract from the above document:

It is stressed that actual marks should not to be revealed to students, but students must be informed that they can collect their Assessment Rank Order Notice from the school after the last HSC examination at their centre and within the period of time for appeals. Students may also see their final rank in each course by using the Students Online service. Schools should note that the Assessment Rank Order Lists are provided for the information of the principal and staff only.
 

ajdlinux

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cem

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"Actual marks are not to be revealed to students" does sound awfully like a demand rather than just a suggestion. Arguably then, they're violating the Information Protection Principles.
The problem is because schools can and some do adjust the raw marks doing things like setting them to the same standard deviation across all subjects and thus the marks that the students get for each task can actually be adjusted by the school. Then you have the situation of trying to explain to Student A why their marks have 'gone up' but Student B why their marks have 'gone down' in this process.

Personally I don't agree with schools being able to do that, but schools do including mine.
 

Lazarus

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"Actual marks are not to be revealed to students" does sound awfully like a demand rather than just a suggestion. Arguably then, they're violating the Information Protection Principles.
I agree that it sounds like a demand, but the truth is that the Board is not empowered to make demands at large. It only has the powers conferred upon it by the Education Act, such as the power to make rules approved by the Minister with respect to the exercise of the Board's functions (s131).

The introduction to the ACE Manual on p5 shows (in my opinion) that the manual could reasonably be seen as a summary of the relevant rules and regulations made under the Act rather than the manual itself being a rule made under the Act. If that is correct, any matters which are contained in the manual but which are not covered by the rules are advisory only.

Curiously, the rule does not appear in the document titled "Rules and Procedures for 2009 Higher School Certificate Candidates", although that document does refer readers to the ACE Manual "for more detailed explanations".

I suppose I have to accept that it's not really clear what the true position is - I obviously have particular views about these things. If the rule has not in fact been made, I think it is unlikely that the Minister would approve it now given the events that have transpired this year and her unconditional acceptance of the Ombudsman's recommendations. This might reasonably be described as a change in governmental policy.

But even if the Board has made or were to make such a rule, it could not trump other legislation passed by a state or federal parliament and would necessarily be subordinate to that legislation.

For public schools, this likely includes the Privacy & Personal Information Protection Act 1998, and for private schools it probably includes the Privacy Act 1988. Interestingly, applications for access to information under the former Act do not need to be in writing and an oral request made to a teacher by a student for access to their assessment mark might well constitute an application under the Act.

The problem is because schools can and some do adjust the raw marks doing things like setting them to the same standard deviation across all subjects and thus the marks that the students get for each task can actually be adjusted by the school. Then you have the situation of trying to explain to Student A why their marks have 'gone up' but Student B why their marks have 'gone down' in this process.

Personally I don't agree with schools being able to do that, but schools do including mine.
I think it's OK for schools to transform marks if the purpose of the transformation is to give greater meaning to the marks and is done in a fair and transparent manner - the raw marks are more or less arbitrary anyway.

Everyone who gives advice in these forums knows that the problem about students not understanding what is going on doesn't go away when marks are hidden. The practice of hiding marks just entrenches ignorance.
 

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