Reynolds/Windshuttle (1 Viewer)

Gregor Samsa

That Guy
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
Messages
1,350
Location
Permanent Daylight
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
Originally posted by tink 18

Windschuttle has gone out there and caused a massive debate over Aboriginal history and Methodology in Australia but dont you think that by simply criticising him, you are doing exactly what he is doing to Reynolds, Ryan, Deanne, Manne and co. Going out and trying to find some means of criticism for their work. You cant just go out there like some of you have and Blast Windschuttle because that is bad history

The idea about objective/scientific/traditional history is to look at an event etc from the outside, not letting your biases, political agendas or personal perspectives influence you.

I seriously thought history extension students who have been studying this course for a year would know not to just straight out criticise someone.

Windschuttle does go out and basically makes the same mistakes that he accuses other historians of making. But dont go out and criticise him because that is just showing bias without evidence. You need to criticise If that is what you wish by analysing his works and coming to well thought out and logical conclusions.
To briefly respond...

But that's the crux of it. From what I've read of Windschuttle's works (The Fabrication Of Aboriginal History and several articles from his site, www.sydneyline.com ) he criticises others heavily for these mistakes that he also makes, without acknowledging his own fallibility.

This is largely, in my opinion, because of Windschuttle's vehement criticism of post-modernism, which of course has the lack of absolute truth as one of it's central doctrines.. (As seen in texts such as 'The Killing Of History' and his articles about Michel Foucault..). Of course, truth does exist in some form, even within Post-Modernism, but from a speech of his I saw (A debate over the 'value' of post-modern history), Keith believes that Post-Modernism instead equates to absolute relativism, attempting to relate an 'extreme' opinion as widespread, which isn't the case. Personally, I'd constitute this as 'bad history'. (IMO)

Windschuttle's belief in a conspiracy can again be demonstrated by his own writings;

It's no secret that the left controls history in Australia, that most of the humanities departments are themselves left dominated and history itself is by far the worst.

And what that's meant is that leftest radicalism has defined history teaching in Australia.
.- Lateline, 3/09/03. (While this is perhaps made more direct because of it's medium and context, it is a good indication of Windschuttle's belief of conspiracy amongst the universities...)

Will add to this. (Need to do some research, in the best historiographical sense.)

Haven't quite scuttled the Windschuttle.
 

NeverSummer

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
32
[It's no secret that the left controls history in Australia, that most of the humanities departments are themselves left dominated and history itself is by far the worst.

And what that's meant is that leftest radicalism has defined history teaching in Australia...indication of Windschuttle's belief of conspiracy amongst the universities...]

I think you take it too far. It is a fact that Australian universities are strongly under the arm of the postmodernists. This is very worrying, and Windschuttle shows due concern.

[he criticises others heavily for these mistakes that he also makes, without acknowledging his own fallibility.]

Please...where where where??! Everyone keeps bringing up his hipocrisy, can someone just give me one example where he fudged figures, distorted evidence, or likewise? (as this alone would account for his hipocrisy. and please dont write back about the attacks on him regarding plagiarism).
 

meh

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2003
Messages
90
ah, why does the discussion of these two historians always lead to such debate. I love it. I do, however find the subject-matter quite boring so I don't really add anything in, cause I dont take interest in finding out the info.

But what has become very aparent is that the lot of you have forgoten the crux of post-moderninsm and are arguing something essentially against it.

Postmodernism theorists questions the absolute validity of concepts of truth and fact, and imply an inescapable and inevitable relativism in our positions in relation to the past. History, in their view, is nothing more than a tentative hypothesis underpinned by a possibly unstated, but nonetheless specific purpose

PM historians believe that human reason cannot explain the past.

Anna
 

amyb

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
70
Location
Illawarra
Can i just add one thing: WTF?! I, rather intelligently, avoided the Windschuttle/Reynolds debate at school, as i find the debate over Aboriginal history rather, well, indefinite and unprovable whichever side you support. I have little knowledge on this, but i believe Windschuttle's claims that Reynold's figures are slightly exaggerated, or unproven, are true. You cannot claim to be a true objective historian if your evidence comes from generalisations about the past. There were battles against Aborigines and 'Whites', but that, bo NO means, signifies ALL Tasmanian Aborigines were wiped out. Perhaps Windschuttle's 'benevolent' view of Australian Frontier history is a bit naive, at least he is only sticking to REAL evidence. If something, especially numbers, is not stated, how ON EARTH can you claim it to be real and a fact?!?! Reynolds is trying to say that 20000 were wiped out, when there is no ACTUAL evidence reporting this...therefore it cannot be claimed to be TRUE WHATSOEVER. As historians, we can only write about facts (even PMs believe facts exist)...we cannot use imagination, generalisations or presumptions as evidence...
I must admit, that last sentence i'm sure a 7th grader would know...
One last point, this debaye cannot have a real end with one 'SIDE' winning because the evidence is not there to support any claim fully. Therefore, in my opinion, this debate is futile and gives me quite a HEADACHE...literally.
 

AsyLum

Premium Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
15,899
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Originally posted by amyb
Therefore, in my opinion, this debate is futile and gives me quite a HEADACHE...literally.
muahaha thats the fun of it...
 

Deathless

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
788
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2010
lol I had him as a lecfturer today. Funniest lecture ever.

He made a lot of people angry, some interuptted and argued with him during his lectures. Others stormed out.

He has some valid points, but he is a bit ignorant and arrogant at times... When someone asked if he would debate Reynolds again, he said "I would debate him anytime, but Reynolds is too scared and won't"
 

Deathless

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
788
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2010
yeah i had him at the Tom Mann theatre

Today our hist teacher deconstructed him... and basically it's "who selects the facts" and that "archives do not exist in a vacuum" etc...
 

Callum3592

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
4
Gender
Male
HSC
2010
Yea, we just ripped him up in the theater, bout the "cherry picking of his sources" and disregard for aboriginal Oral sources
 

bcv

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2024
Messages
287
Location
between your walls
Gender
Female
HSC
2024
Windschuttle seems to believe that there is some sort of historiographical conspiracy going on within Australian universities. He highlights the relations between historians such as Reynolds and Ryan at the beginning of 'The Fabrication Of Aboriginal History', and goes on about how they 'all' believe that the death and dispossession of Australia's indigenous peoples was genocidal.

His main method of 'proving' this belief (Personally, I find it paranoid, seeing there are significant differences in the outlooks of the respective historians, contrary to his depiction of conspiracy) is through finding errors in references and footnotes, as well as using the 'evidence' (Here is a major problem with Windschuttle.. He employs double standards. Reading The Fabrication, it seems that any evidence to justify his interpretation is 'objective' and 'accurate'...) to reveal that some recorded massacres never took place. Windschuttle believes that the 'real' history has been systematically distorted for political gain, contrary to his belief in the objectivity of the historian.

The argument that all history is politicised, that it is impossible for the historian to shed his political interests and prejudices, and that those who believed they could do so are only deluding themselves, has become the most corrupting influence of all. It has turned the traditional role of the historian, to stand outside his contemporary society in order to seek the truth about the past, on its head.....In contrast, the proper role of the historian is to try to stand above politics, difficult though this always will be. -Windschuttle, 'The Construction Of Aboriginal History, Fact Or Fiction?".

What makes it really ironic however, is that Fabrication can be interpreted as a political comment, seeing part of the text is about the Aboriginal 'mistreatment' of heritage areas, being strongly against land rights. Additionally, he denies the notion of an Aboriginal resistance movement, dismissing them instead as 'criminals';

Despite its infamous reputation, Van Diemen's Land was host to nothing that resembled genocide, which requires murderous intention against a whole race of people. In Van Diemen's Land, the infamous "Black Line" of 1830 is commonly described today as an act of "ethnic cleansing". However, its purpose was to remove from the settled districts only two of the nine tribes on the island to uninhabited country from where they could no longer assault white households. The lieutenant-governor specifically ordered that five of the other seven tribes be left alone.".-Windschuttle, 'White Settlement In Australia: Violent Conquest Or Benign Colonisation?"

But yes, his basic thesis is that there was no genocide in Australia, claiming instead that colonisation was a benevolent process. Indeed, he believes that the extinction of Tasmanian Aborigines occured not because of British policy, but instead due to supposed 'weaknesses' in the Aboriginals themselves.. The survival of the Aboriginals in Tasmania until the colonisation was more the result of good fortune than good management.The Fabrication Of Aboriginal History, pg.364.

Politically, Windschuttle is a Neo-Conservative. He was formerly a Marxist, but 'converted' at some point in the 1980's, I believe.
[Note, as you can probably tell, I'm strongly against Windschuttle in this 'dispute', seeing his criticism is hypocritical, and even if he does raise the occasional doubt, there's a vast difference between that and a deliberate fabrication of history..]

As for it's relevance to historiography, it can be seen as questioning the relation of historiography and politics, standards of evidence, objectivity (Eg:Last year's HSC question...), changing perspectives, public relevance/controversy etc:. I like writing about it.

Did anyone else see his speech at that Extension History day? It provoked outrage.. (I briefly 'debated' him outside the room after the major questioning, criticising his use of official evidence as the main basis of his thesis, seeing official sources present the offical view-Peter Burke, and mentioning contextual ideologies.. As in, he uses newspaper reports describing Aboriginals as 'criminals', when this is a contextual viewpoint, rather than the absolute reality.] :chainsaw:
it has been 21 years but this is helping me for my trials
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top