Should English Be Compulsary Poll (3 Viewers)

[russianROULETTE]

Yeah passing should be relatively difficult but not uberly... if you know what I mean. I'm just saying it's slack to count it to a person's UAI cause if they have a weakness in that one subject and their aiming for 99 UAI but get 98.95 instead then that's pretty unfair.

On another note: Maths should be made COMPULSORY as well! But doesn't have to count to the UAI.

I really don't see the point of doing subjects that won't count to your UAI. If English didn't count to the UAI no one would put any effort in, which defeats the purpose of doing it in the first place. By counting it to the UAI they force people to learn and put some effort in.

Say English didn't count to the UAI. Is it fair to the student who may have English as a best subject? Is it fair to the person who puts an equal effort into all subjects including English, compared to the student who decides to put no effort into English and focus on other subjects and as a result, gets a higher UAI? Not very fair IMO.

On a similar note, I have a friend who doesn't think English counts to the UAI. He also thinks your cohort can't drag you down at all lol.

 

[lyounamu]

Well if he stays in power that long, i will be suprised

But still, apparently english as a compulsory (Sorry everybody) subject has only been in the HSC since Bob Carr changed it

I mean think about it, but who are the most disadvantaged by having english as a compulsory subject:

People who arent good at english. And those people all tend to be good even brilliant in maths, and science. This is the stereotypical asian/indian. And this is quite true

This also gives people who are good at english a huge advantage over those who arent.

So you can have a one sided subject selection like 4u english, 5 u of history, ecos, geo etc, but if u r good at science, it is 'bad' to have a one sided timetable, and so english needs to be part of that time-table to balance it out.

This is a flawed argument

CANNOT AGREE MORE. I have got 2 friends who are total freaks in English & History. They basically dropped Mathematics and they only concentrate on 5 units of History, 4 units of English and 1 unit of Studies of Religon I. They absolutely absent themselves away from subjects they abhor & are not good at (Maths & Sciences).

 

[Studentleader]

Personally Idc if maths is compulsory, if someone can't tell if my deal is good based on some exponential it is their fail and my profit

Maths is the universal language (L)

 

[eliseliselise]

i think that also one of the admission point thingys @ UNSW for kids who get extra points for doing 4umath, chem, physics et al so as that they can gain entrance into some courses kinda ruins the point of having english to even us out.. so if one does le crappe in english, a hand is there to help in the form of bonus points.

but all's fair in love and war, and if we were in another country i daresay we wouldnt be nearly as accepting as we are in aus, and most likely their native tongue would be compulsory in their HSC equivalent too.

is chinese [mandarin/cantonese..et al] compulsory in china?

 

[lacklustre]

lol !! rofl!! i never realized, i spell it the way i pronounce it, and i always get mixed up.

Note to self: write out compulsory a 100 times

EDIT: maybe i should shut my mouth.

 

[nayyarv]

Say English didn't count to the UAI. Is it fair to the student who may have English as a best subject? Is it fair to the person who puts an equal effort into all subjects including English, compared to the student who decides to put no effort into English and focus on other subjects and as a result, gets a higher UAI? Not very fair IMO.

I am beginning to think it is actually scaling causing all these problems

I mean no-one would do advanced for the scaling, sciency people would be doing standard or lower (if possible) and cruising.

Every1 would do the subjects they wanted to at appropriate levels of difficulty, and we would get a mark

This would be fair to all

Obtaining a UAI would be tricky though

Mmmm...

Does any1 know about the IB, its eliminated these problems, but became far too rigid. No scaling, all raw marks, all external assessment

 

[.deimonic]

I really don't see the point of doing subjects that won't count to your UAI. If English didn't count to the UAI no one would put any effort in, which defeats the purpose of doing it in the first place. By counting it to the UAI they force people to learn and put some effort in.

Say English didn't count to the UAI. Is it fair to the student who may have English as a best subject? Is it fair to the person who puts an equal effort into all subjects including English, compared to the student who decides to put no effort into English and focus on other subjects and as a result, gets a higher UAI? Not very fair IMO.

On a similar note, I have a friend who doesn't think English counts to the UAI. He also thinks your cohort can't drag you down at all lol.

Yeah but English is somewhat important because you need to have decent english to understand whats going on in uni, lol. It's also better to have a basis on essay writing for uni (even if they do teach it again in uni its easier for people if they have some ex+perience already).

And I'm saying English doesn't HAVE to count to your UAI, which means it can be counted if it were one of your best subjects, that way it has equal weighting to any other 2U subject.

 

[flaminwaffle]

It's not fair for those like me, who hate english. Im a predominantly left brain dominant thinker who's still looking for a high UAI so i chose adv english. I get decent marks but everything i do in english is a forced way of thinking. I need to force myself to see all the doo dahs in texts and whatnot and i have to force myself to make connections in things that seem completely unrelated. It's not fun...

I can see why english would be made compulsory. I wouldnt be happy, but i can live with that. However, making it count towards the UAI, that's bull. Not everyone is good at english and it's really not fair to them.

As for english improving essay writing and whatnot, i can use the english skills that i learnt up to year 10 to write texts in 'left brain dominant' subjects like science, software etc. This is because nobody gives a flying crap if your english is off in these subjects.

 

[lyounamu]

Maybe you should also write out "realised" one hundred times too.

edit: I'm in a nit-picking mood.

:wave: :wave: :wave:

Nah, that's not good enough. No one should take that kind of approach towards learning.

One mistake = 100 times (I will accept that but...)
2 mistakes = 100^2 times (how about that?)
3 mistakes = 100^3 times rofl: :rofl: :rofl: )

As they say 'practice makes it perfect'. So 'over-practice makes it over-perfect', which is even better. :rofl:

 

[veloc1ty]

I much prefer the EX1 course to Advanced, though I think my school chose the best texts and electives for both courses. I cringe to think of doing Emma/Clueless or the overdone BNW/BR instead of Malouf/Wordsworth.

 

[.deimonic]

Well if he stays in power that long, i will be suprised

But still, apparently english as a compulsory (Sorry everybody) subject has only been in the HSC since Bob Carr changed it

I mean think about it, but who are the most disadvantaged by having english as a compulsory subject:

People who arent good at english. And those people all tend to be good even brilliant in maths, and science. This is the stereotypical asian/indian. And this is quite true

This also gives people who are good at english a huge advantage over those who arent.

So you can have a one sided subject selection like 4u english, 5 u of history, ecos, geo etc, but if u r good at science, it is 'bad' to have a one sided timetable, and so english needs to be part of that time-table to balance it out.

This is a flawed argument

It's not fair for those like me, who hate english. Im a predominantly left brain dominant thinker who's still looking for a high UAI so i chose adv english. I get decent marks but everything i do in english is a forced way of thinking. I need to force myself to see all the doo dahs in texts and whatnot and i have to force myself to make connections in things that seem completely unrelated. It's not fun...

I can see why english would be made compulsory. I wouldnt be happy, but i can live with that. However, making it count towards the UAI, that's bull. Not everyone is good at english and it's really not fair to them.

As for english improving essay writing and whatnot, i can use the english skills that i learnt up to year 10 to write texts in 'left brain dominant' subjects like science, software etc. This is because nobody gives a flying crap if your english is off in these subjects.

I agree with these two quotes. But flaminwaffle I think they do give a flying crap about english in uni

Btw- This topic is getting real popular. lol all the english flamers are coming in.

 

[russianROULETTE]

I am beginning to think it is actually scaling causing all these problems

I mean no-one would do advanced for the scaling, sciency people would be doing standard or lower (if possible) and cruising.

Every1 would do the subjects they wanted to at appropriate levels of difficulty, and we would get a mark

This would be fair to all

Obtaining a UAI would be tricky though

Mmmm...

Does any1 know about the IB, its eliminated these problems, but became far too rigid. No scaling, all raw marks, all external assessment

scaling is necessary for fairness, IMO. With your point about IB... no idea what it is, but it doesn't seem like it would work because schools use different coursebooks/ do topics in different orders and take a different amount of time to do them.

Yeah but English is somewhat important because you need to have decent english to understand whats going on in uni, lol. It's also better to have a basis on essay writing for uni (even if they do teach it again in uni its easier for people if they have some ex+perience already).

And I'm saying English doesn't HAVE to count to your UAI, which means it can be counted if it were one of your best subjects, that way it has equal weighting to any other 2U subject.

lol i think you misunderstood my argument. i mean that english should both be compulsory and count to the UAI, because people won't get those skills unless it's compulsory and they are forced to work.

 

[.deimonic]

scaling is necessary for fairness, IMO. With your point about IB... no idea what it is, but it doesn't seem like it would work because schools use different coursebooks/ do topics in different orders and take a different amount of time to do them.

lol i think you misunderstood my argument. i mean that english should both be compulsory and count to the UAI, because people won't get those skills unless it's compulsory and they are forced to work.

They can gain those skills if its compulsory to pass. (And if passing is made difficult), but it's still unfair to make it HAVE to coutn to your UAI, there are some students who are excellent at all their subjects but not so good at english. They shouldn't have to suffer just because it must go to their UAI.

I've heard english has dragged some students from 99+uai down to 97 and failing to get into med. It's not like they're complete shit at the subject but they're just not great at it. Get what im saying?

Would you think its fair if they made maths compulsory and count to the UAI?

May the battle between English people and Maths people begin!

I will always be on the stronger side.

EDIT: At this stage, I am on maths team.

Haha join the crew of math nerds . Actually I'm on neither side, I'm a physics person! But that isnt in the debate.

 

[nayyarv]

Yes found spell check thats brilliant

no more compulsary lol

maybe that might just draw more people to this thread

The idiots guide to the International Bacclaureate

You have to do 6 subjects
1 english, 1 Language Other Than English, 1 Maths, 1 Science, 1 Humanity and 1 elective - can be anything another language a science a humanity etc.

Of these 6 subjects, at least 3 have to be higher levels(HL), the rest are standard levels(SL)
SL levels are equivalent to 3 units in the HSC for hardness in eng and maths
HL is harder than 4 u math, but different for english
HL science is equivalent to 3unit under the old course
SL science is harder 2unit
HL LOTE, u need to be as good as background speaker
and it goes on

it is much harder than the HSC

and each subject is marked out of 7 (all externally marked, not just one exam, exams throughout). Band 7 have different boundaries for different subjects but are usually 80 to 85 + for ur raw mark

for 3 marks u have to write an extended discussion in which u investigate somethin important to you.

This adds up to a mark out of 45

45/45, is an almost guaranteed scholarship to any uni in the world.
its UAI equivalent is 99.95, due to political reasons

however, this causes a brain drain on the school, coz a lotta smart kids do the IB and this means bad scaling for the kids doin the HSC as the smartest arent doin that subject :-(.

 

[russianROULETTE]

They can gain those skills if its compulsory to pass. (And if passing is made difficult), but it's still unfair to make it HAVE to coutn to your UAI, there are some students who are excellent at all their subjects but not so good at english. They shouldn't have to suffer just because it must go to their UAI.

I've heard english has dragged some students from 99+uai down to 97 and failing to get into med. It's not like they're complete shit at the subject but they're just not great at it. Get what im saying?

If it's compulsory to pass, yes, it would work. But your post didn't say that, you just said about not counting it to the UAI unless it's one of your best subs. which gives people opportunity to bludge. But when you put it that way, yes, it is fair.

Would you think its fair if they made maths compulsory and count to the UAI?

if you think it's valid to argue against english on the basis that it disadvantages students, then it's valid for me to argue it's unfair to make maths compulsory and count as well. however if it were to happen, i would accept that it is an important skill and do the work without complaint.

May the battle between English people and Maths people begin!

I was waiting for something like this. It has nothing to do with English vs Maths...

 

[Caitlin63]

People are saying english is a life skill. Well yes it is but that's the language not the stuff in the course we do. Well actually I don't know about standard as all my friends happen to do advanced. But for general living, there is no way anyone need to know how to analyse a text or make comparisons between them.

The skills needed from english in life are the skills in the language itself, which are in fact practiced in all subjects that are not languages other than english. I think that people should do english if they like it, I absolutely hate it but would still do it if it were not compulsory because I am reasonably good at it, but I think that only the best 10 units should count towards your UAI, they shouldn't make any one subject compulsory to count.

On the other had, I think a life skills maths course should be made and if people do not want to choose another form of maths this should be what they have to do as it will actually have a use in the outside world.

So overall, no I don't think English as it currently stands should be compulsory.

 

[Cerry]

Hey, guys! I have got solution to all these problems!

Why don't we write petition? Sending a nice little mail to our dear Morris will put an end to these all complaints!

Morris will approve our views if we say that he will be kicked out of NSW parliament by the next election.

And the best part is, if all the people who were shitty about the English thing actually vote against him, we could probably knock the labour party out, given that by the time the next election comes around in 3 years (don't quote me on that) time, that's a lot of pissed off people of voting age (well, if we planned it properly)

I dislike the english course , I like the idea of english, but i believe they could make it much more interesting, with modern films we as teenages can relate to.

Clearly, your English class isn't doing Emma/Clueless. Come to think of it, we did 10 Things I Hate About you in year 10, as well.

I'm doing 3 units of English (would have done 4 if the course had run), but I think the current system is complete BS. It shouldn't have to count towards your UAI unless it's actually in your 10 best units (especially since maths is probably actually more useful in everyday life, and yet they don't make you do the subject, let alone count it in your UAI unless it's in your 10 best units).

They also need to redo the syllabus. There are people in year 12 who still can't spell or use proper grammar, but we haven't done any real work on that since about year 7.
Ditch the compulsory Shakespeare, given that Elizabethan English is practically a foreign language.
Make the strong focus on analysing texts part of the extension courses, where people actually enjoy (or are at least good at) reading.
Put a wider variety of texts on the syllabus - I've done 3 Jane Austen novels since year 11, and they're all about the same bloody story with different characters.
And all that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[nayyarv]

And the best part is, if all the people who were shitty about the English thing actually vote against him, we could probably knock the labour party out, given that by the time the next election comes around in 3 years (don't quote me on that) time, that's a lot of pissed off people of voting age (well, if we planned it properly)


Clearly, your English class isn't doing Emma/Clueless. Come to think of it, we did 10 Things I Hate About you in year 10, as well.

I'm doing 3 units of English (would have done 4 if the course had run), but I think the current system is complete BS. It shouldn't have to count towards your UAI unless it's actually in your 10 best units (especially since maths is probably actually more useful in everyday life, and yet they don't make you do the subject, let alone count it in your UAI unless it's in your 10 best units).

They also need to redo the syllabus. There are people in year 12 who still can't spell or use proper grammar, but we haven't done any real work on that since about year 7.
Ditch the compulsory Shakespeare, given that Elizabethan English is practically a foreign language.
Make the strong focus on analysing texts part of the extension courses, where people actually enjoy (or are at least good at) reading.
Put a wider variety of texts on the syllabus - I've done 3 Jane Austen novels since year 11, and they're all about the same bloody story with different characters.
And all that's just the tip of the iceberg.

AMEN ​

 

[.deimonic]

If it's compulsory to pass, yes, it would work. But your post didn't say that, you just said about not counting it to the UAI unless it's one of your best subs. which gives people opportunity to bludge. But when you put it that way, yes, it is fair.

if you think it's valid to argue against english on the basis that it disadvantages students, then it's valid for me to argue it's unfair to make maths compulsory and count as well. however if it were to happen, i would accept that it is an important skill and do the work without complaint.

I was waiting for something like this. It has nothing to do with English vs Maths...

I'm quite sure I stated somewhere in my previous posts that English should be compulsory and needed to be passed.

 

[Cerry]

On the other had, I think a life skills maths course should be made and if people do not want to choose another form of maths this should be what they have to do as it will actually have a use in the outside world.

Actually, it exists. I'm under the impression you practically have to prove a learning disability to get into it though, and I'm not sure you can count it towards your UAI.