Stupid White Americans (2 Viewers)

[Butterfly_Wings]

I think the book titles seems far less pointed than the title of this thread...considering there is a picture of the white male author on the book cover.

 

[Rorix]

After all, we all know how factually correct and neutrally portrayed SWM is..

 

[Alexander]

You just need to understand Moore beforehand. He usually switches from comedic solutions to very serious ones.

 

[braindrainedAsh]

You sound like Michael Moore.... too much like him.... r u michael moore?

 

[rubylotus11]

I just thought I would read what people's thoughts were on this. I think Crazyhobo is correct and I also see where everyone else is coming from. It seems almost logical to remove a leader that commits such terrible crimes against his own people. Although people should also remember his use of Chemical Warfare was against the Kurds. A non-arabic people with their own language and culture who have been subjugated by neighbouring peoples for most of their history.
Things aren't so black and white and there are some serious problems with the war in Iraq in my own opinion. Perhaps in a purely one sided view, the world has been made more safe for us, for the west. Although that is not even certain. But for the people in Iraq, just because Saddam has been captured the fight for their freedom is not over. A power vacuum has been created, their infrastructures have been torn apart and their family members (just as they were when Saddam was in power) are being killed every day. I am sure that the majority of the civilians are relieved that Saddam is gone, but I am sure there is real fear in their hearts of what their futures hold.
I think the original point of this thread was to emphasise our need for questioning the status quo and the way that the world is neatly explained to us by the media. Governments act in what they feel is in the best interests of the country. In other words what makes us more stable, more secure, more weatlhy (ie. TRADE). But maybe the world should see people in a more global sense. We may feel safer, but if the rest of world is living in violence, poverty and despair we cannot believe that we are separate from that. That everything is not indeed interconnected. If September 11th said anything, it was that.
Well that's just my opinion...

 

[SKA]

yeh... well did ne 1 know that bush cheated his way to becoming president

by taking black people off the voting lists
bcoz they mostly vote independently

big scandal... algore shulda been president

 

[Rorix]

Your source? Please don't say Micheal Moore (who I am using as my source on Flordian election law ITP)....

Firstly, it wasn't George W. Bush. Secondly, it wasn't illegal - the law in Florida is that those convicted of a felony are unable to vote. As such, names were removed from the election roll. The only way in which the rules were bent is that a large selection criteria was used. Thirdly, I don't even need to point out how stupid it is to say 'black people' were taking off the election roll. Fourthly (if that's even a word), 'independently' means neither Democrats or Republicans. I'm assuming you meant to say they would have voted Republican but i) in America, voting is not compulsory - most people simply don't vote ii) there is no way of telling which way they would have voted if they did.

Fifthly, both sides use dodgy tactics to secure votes for themselves or to take votes away from the other party. It is quite naive to say that Al Gore should have been President even if it is proven that votes were illegally taken away which would have won Gore Florida.

 

[mic]

but what about the database rorix? katherine harris and DB technologies set the felony database in such a way that ppl with similar names to felons weren't allowed to vote. many of those ppl happened to be african-american, 90% of whom, according to voting stats, vote democrat.

there was this documentary on sbs that covered the entire election and all the dirty dealing that went behind the scenes. a woman who was an electoral officer had a similar name to a felon and was turned away from voting.

this isn't to say i support al gore as a politician either. frankly US elections are turning into a joke, esp when courts have to decide who is the next prez.

but he did win the popular vote, and if it weren't for the database and the hanging chads, he would be in the white house

 

[Rorix]

Like I said, "the only way in which the rules were bent is that a large selection criteria was used.". I must admit I don't know too much about what really happened in Florida other than what I gleamed from a recent reading of SWM (taking care to avoid the bias where possible).

However, American elections are full of games from both sides. For every Democrat vote that was discounted, you can be reasonably sure that a Republican vote was similary discounted.

 

[rubylotus11]

Not George W. Bush! May I remind you that his brother Jeb Bush is the Governor of Florida. Katherine Harris was also George W. Bush's presidential campaign cochairwoman and the Florida secretary of state in charge of elections.
Absolutely, politics is full of loopholes and deceit, but why not begin to correct and state when things are not just. People in America sadly don't bother to use their right to vote, but that does not make what happened okay. If the same thing occured in another state in another county where thousands of average American and probably white people were falsely accused of being a felon and not allowed their right to vote, I don't think it would be taken lightly. I don't think it would have been forgotten about. That is the truth and the reality of what happened.

 

[SKA]

my source was some documentry thingo on tv ages ago

so sorry for not being more precise ... but u get the picture

 

[Rorix]

Not George W. Bush! May I remind you that his brother Jeb Bush is the Governor of Florida. Katherine Harris was also George W. Bush's presidential campaign cochairwoman and the Florida secretary of state in charge of elections.

The quote implied that George W Bush himself was directly responsible for 'cheating' on the election. I disagreed. You seem to be agreeing with me. Thanks.

Absolutely, politics is full of loopholes and deceit, but why not begin to correct and state when things are not just.

Because then one side has an unfair advantage of being able to cheat.

People in America sadly don't bother to use their right to vote, but that does not make what happened okay.

No vote at all is better than an uninformed vote.

If the same thing occured in another state in another county where thousands of average American and probably white people were falsely accused of being a felon and not allowed their right to vote, I don't think it would be taken lightly.

Sooo, you're telling me that not one single white person was falsely accused of being a felon?

That is the truth and the reality of what happened.

Well, if rubylotus11 of the Bored of Studies forum says that's the way it is, then that is the way it is.

Look, there's just no way you can reasonably claim that Gore would have won the votes from Florida if some names were not wrongly removed. There were no reports saying that Florida election law was carried out anything but to the letter without discrimination based on race.

 

[chelloveck]

anyone else see this as futile? i don't think arguing over something so ambiguous an open-ended is going to help anyone...

 

[rubylotus11]

it is futile

 

[loser]

This is the documentary from SBS: http://www.unprecedented.org/UnprecedentedPreview.htm

Its not the whole thing, but you can watch the trailer.

 

[Rorix]

Go to www.unprecedented.org

Look at the links on the links page.

qed.

 

[Turner]

Originally posted by hatty
Meaning, you opposed the overthrow of Saddam, hence you still prefer him to be the ruler of Iraq.

People in Iraq, during his regime, were slaves. Thats all.
They suffered immensely, they barely had enough food to eat.
Why? Because their leader, used all his damn money, to build palaces with toilet flushes, made of pure gold.
Were they allowed to speak out against this? No.
Those who did, were tortured. Then Killed.
Do they get to go to school and learn things that didn't have the words "Saddam is Great" in it?
No.

The first point is entirely wrong. Do you seriously think that anti-war supporters support Saddam's cruelty?

As for the suffering in Iraq, I'm interested whether you support bombing of other countries with bad human rights records, eg china, zimbabwe, saudi arabia...

Originally posted by hatty
the argument that the US used to help Saddam and all the shit doesn't work, due to a simple fact that shit changes.

But Saddam was still the tyrant he was now (or recently) back 20 years ago... did it make it ok to turn a blind eye then, when he was helping the US? Does that make it ok to invade because of how despicable he is now, when we have know for so long about how terribles he was?

Originally posted by hatty
It is a fact that before the war started. UN inspectors were able to find empty chemical warheads in very good condition.
This begs the question who would make empty warheads?

You just dont make empty chemical warheads.

That's because, although Iraq did have a chamical weapons program, it shut it down a long time ago. So, obviously, they don't have chemical weapons stockpiles, but they have empty warheads. Go figure.

However, the truth is millions of people are no longer oppresed anymore.

And thats pretty much all I care about.

I agree that is good. But it does depend on how the Iraqi situation will pan out. Will there be a respectable democracy, a shining beacon of Freedom in the Middle East, or will there be an autocracy? With all the religious factions in Iraq, we can only hope that whichever one takes power doesn't oppress others the way Saddam's autocracy did.

Yes, millions are free. But roughly ten thousand are dead, and many tens of thousands wounded. And from those thousands are relatives, friends, assosiates, and fellow iraqi's and arabs who have gained a hate for America, a hate which some are willing to use in violent action towards the west. And so the spiral continues. And that's what scares me.

Btw, I recommend for bedtime reading "Howard's War" by Alison Browkov... Broko... yeah, the book "Howard's War". Better than Stupid White Men, more based on facts than pretentious humour.

 

[Suney_J]

Originally posted by um..
(saddam a sunni muslim leader, hated al qaeda and osama bin laden - a shiite - and his fundamentalist policies, and vice versa.

i know this is a bit late and beside the point, but bin laden isn't a shiite, i thought the taliban actually killed shiites

 

[Alexander]

Saddam wasn't really a sunni either. It was just for show, like Bush does.

 

[freaking_out]

na, saddam is meant to b a sunni...thats y most of his supporters are from the "sunni triangle"...but at the end, he was just an american puppet.