sydney vs. UNSW vs. macquarie vs. UTS (1 Viewer)

[vi3tstylez]

Hey everyone,

I'm considering doing commerce law or something law next year but i don't know really know much about the course at all, so now i have heaps of questions. Thanls for any replies in advance.

1) First of all i don't which university to apply for.

Here are the UAI cut-offs (2004) for the universities i am considering

Sydney University 99.6
UNSW 99.35
UTS 98.5 (B Business B Laws)
Macquarie 95.45

I know no-one could have completed all four of these law courses but are the courses any different / harder for each university ?


2) Will i be disadvantaged if i do a lower UAI requirement course in the long run?


3)What are the main reasons for macquarie's requirement to be so low compared to the other courses (besides demand)?

4) Is it true that you don't get a high UAI, you can still go to a commerce course in UNSW / Sydney than take up the law part and it will still be a five year course (providing you get a distinction average or something- is it hard to do this?). Is it better to do this that than to take a lower UAI requirement combined course such as Macquarie?

5) What's the main differences between applied finance and commerce laws?

6) I'm not a great talker so i don't think i will be going for barrister. Realistically, if
im a solicitor what salary will i be looking at 5-10 years after graduating (private sector)?

7) Can i transfer doing the course between these 4 unis?

Other general questions not only applicable to law:

7) I live close to macquarie (10min by car), does the location factor matter for determining university choice? It will take me at least 40 minutes by train to go to city.

8) Is it hard balancing part-time jobs /social life when doing full-time studying?

Thanks again for any replies.

 

[Suvat]

1) The courses are probably around the same level of difficulty, although if the uni bell curves their grades (which i think all of them except uts does), it *might* be more difficult to achieve good grades in the higher uai courses as you're competiting against ppl who achieved those uais or above

2) You will definitely not be disadvantaged in the long run. Which uni you go to may only assist you in your first job, then you're on your own

3) Demand Some say shoddy law school but as far as i know those claims are baseless. Prolly cuz maccas is in the middle of nowhere. Also, I think maccas still uses lectures, whereas usyd and unsw (dunno abt uts) use small group teaching which is a so much better way to learn law.

4) Yes, all the unis allow you to take a commmerce/business course and transfer to law 2nd year if your marks are good enough and still get you out in 5 years

5) I think maccas is the only uni that offers applied finance, all the other unis offer it as a finance major in a business/commerce course. I don't see much difference, although applied finance may be more specialised

6) Depends how you perform. a six digit figure is not unrealistic

7) I don't think you can transfer after 1st year, even if you can, you might not get credited for all the subjects u accumulated and therefore lose time

You got 2 7's

8) YES, location factor matters ALOT, after all, you don't want to be catching the 895 for 5 years straight

9) Nah, heaps of ppl do it

 

[Frigid]

if you think like a sheep, you'll choose 99.6+ usyd.
if you're smart you'll choose the rest, in order of cutoff.

 

[santaslayer]

Hey everyone,


4) Is it true that you don't get a high UAI, you can still go to a commerce course in UNSW / Sydney than take up the law part and it will still be a five year course (providing you get a distinction average or something- is it hard to do this?). Is it better to do this that than to take a lower UAI requirement combined course such as Macquarie?

5) What's the main differences between applied finance and commerce laws?


7) Can i transfer doing the course between these 4 unis?


8) Is it hard balancing part-time jobs /social life when doing full-time studying?

Thanks again for any replies.

4) Yes, you will still be able to transfer. That being said, it is really difficult to do so. Every year, people talk about transferring, the number of people who actually achieve that HD grade is depressing....You have to remember that a HD means at least an 85 for all subjects across the board...not many people on this board have done so. (and the members on this board are supposed to be smart..)

So it's all a gamble. If you think you can transfer then go for it, because if you can't then you will be stuck with Commerce alone. You can only attempt to transfer once for law. You can always try for graduate law though..

7) Applied finance is usually under Commerce as a major. Not all universities offer it though. Commerce is just a broad umbrella where you can specialise in any particular field. eh. HR, Logistics, Accounting..etc.

8) I think it's hard. Some crazy people even manage to fit some professional sport in their schedule as well...

 

[Suvat]

Sydney is old school law school. they still have lectures. UNSW doesnt have lectures. Only classes and 'small' group teaching.

All undergraduate programs at usyd comprises completely of small group teaching. Last semester in foundations we had an optional lecture given by a guest lecturer (judge, politician, some guy from the ADT, professors from other unis inc unsw) every week, but those lectures were compulsory or part of the syllabus, just special interest lectures really.

For the rest of the undergraduate courses it's small group teaching only

 

[Frigid]

I know no-one could have completed all four of these law courses but are the courses any different / harder for each university ?

each uni would have have its own advantages and disadvantages. in the end, it doesn't matter which uni you come out of, as long as you got a uni medal for law

usyd = considered blackletter and prestigious
unsw = prestigious
uts = practical and serves the industry. many good uts lawyers squishy.
macqu = ??? they're anti-blackletter (what's that word again).

basically the core syllabuses are the same because of Priestley's 11.

2) Will i be disadvantaged if i do a lower UAI requirement course in the long run?

unlikely. get an HD-average or law-medal and it doesn't matter where you come from! have you considered UWS?

3)What are the main reasons for macquarie's requirement to be so low compared to the other courses (besides demand)?

if you're gonna do commerce along with law, you realise everything in the world is supply-and-demand.

4) Is it true that you don't get a high UAI, you can still go to a commerce course in UNSW / Sydney than take up the law part and it will still be a five year course (providing you get a distinction average or something- is it hard to do this?). Is it better to do this that than to take a lower UAI requirement combined course such as Macquarie?

errr... yeah you can do graduate law if you like... it's really up to you.

5) What's the main differences between applied finance and commerce laws?

look up finance and look up commerce. compare and contrast.

6) I'm not a great talker so i don't think i will be going for barrister. Realistically, if
im a solicitor what salary will i be looking at 5-10 years after graduating (private sector)?

depends where you work, how hard you work and whether you're willing to sleep with your boss.

7) Can i transfer doing the course between these 4 unis?

yes, but only after 1 year. fail the transfer, and no more chance to transfer.

Other general questions not only applicable to law:

7) I live close to macquarie (10min by car), does the location factor matter for determining university choice? It will take me at least 40 minutes by train to go to city.

hmmm... not really. i went to a school in the city and it took 1.5 hrs to get to school so i'm used to it.

8) Is it hard balancing part-time jobs /social life when doing full-time studying?

no not really. i work casually, have a diminutive social life and still do full-time study with plenty of time to bludge. that's why i'm cramming for my finals.

 

[shannonm]

7) I live close to macquarie (10min by car), does the location factor matter for determining university choice? It will take me at least 40 minutes by train to go to city.

7- nuff said, if i was you i'd go to mac (2nd biggest reason i went to unsw over usyd was because its a ~10min walk, and not x mins by bus)
8- no, (especially if you end up doing law)

 

[Suvat]

Nah, unsw was 30 too years early :

And blackletter law at usyd is a myth, we more often than not have debates in class on contentious moral and philosophical issues

 

[Minai]

USyd should really refurbish its law building, how cool would that be? I personally think its really ugly at the moment.

Anyway, my comment on this is simply to not pick uni's based on their relative cutoffs

 

[lukebennett]

two of my cousins do law at macquarie and they really like it there. i have heard that UNSW is better at law though than usyd is. am i wrong

 

[Frigid]

(why you only do one session of crim...and we do two)

oh pur-lease tim... none of this 'my dick is bigger than yours'-type argument.

you can't show me statistically that UNSW graduates are better crim lawyers than USYD or UTS.

 

[Frigid]

see the thing is i believe universities nowadays ALL have a mixture of policy/theory... you can't get anywhere without studying the theory, but of course you need to study policy/context/social issues etc... for example, even though my foundations class only had 1 lecture on Mabo, we spent 1 seminar talking about indigenous issues.

although, however, UTS seems quite blackletter on crim:

70217
CRIMINAL LAW 6cp;
corequisite(s): 70113 Legal Process and History, 70105 Legal Research Undergraduate and Postgraduate

This subject deals with the substantive criminal law, the doctrines and rules that define the conditions of criminal liability and some aspects of the procedural law. Australian common law doctrine and the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) are considered. Topics include the nature of crime; the doctrine of mens rea and actus reus; presumption of innocence; offences against the person; property offences; strict liability; complicity; criminal defences.

Subject learning objectives
This course is designed to introduce students to the principles that govern Criminal Law. It has been structured to ensure that students acquire a good knowledge and understanding of the rel e vant legal principles and to acquire a number of skills. These skills include the ability to apply the rel e vant legal principles and authorities in the solution of problems and questions. In addition, the course will focus on the ability of students to express themselves briefly, clearly and accurately (orally and in writing), and under the pressure of ex am i na tion conditions.
On successful completion of this subject, students should have developed:
> a knowledge of substantive criminal law;
> an understanding of the principles of criminal liability; and
> an ability to solve criminal law problem questions.

Lecture Outline
1 Introduction to Criminal Law (an extensive case lists and other readings for each topic will be provided in the detailed Course Outline distribute during Week 1 lectures)
2 Classification of Crime and Proof
3 Elements of a Crime (the conduct element, the fault element, coincidence of actus reus and mens rea, partial mens rea offences, and strict and absolute liability)
4 Unlawful Homicide: the external circumstances (human being, year-and-a-day rule, voluntary conduct, causation and omission to perform a legal duty to preserve life)
5 Murder: the mental element (intent to kill, intent to commit grievous bodily harm, reckless indifference to human life and constructive murder rule) Murder: Actus reus and mens rea- the time dimension
6 Manslaughter- involuntary Manslaughter- voluntary (partial defences to murder)
7 Property Offences- larceny (actus reus, mens rea and the requirement of temporal coincidence) Property Offences- specialised variants (larceny by a finding, larceny by a trick, larceny by a bailee, obtaining by false pretences and related offences, and robbery)
8 Assaults- non sexual (types, mens rea, actus reus, coincidence of actus reus and mens rea and defences) Assaults- sexual (actus reus, mens rea and proving non-consent)
9 Indirect Offences- complicity, attempt
10 Defences- insanity, automatism, intoxication, duress, necessity & self-defence

from: http://www.law.uts.edu.au/student/outlines/70217.pdf

very blackletter indeed.

 

[Frigid]

some people comaplain that crim law at unsw is much much much much to non black letter...we do learn the law eventually...its just surrounded by about a million pages of policy...

but don't you think lawyers who want to specialise in criminal law eventually do graduate study in criminology or psychology anyway?

 

[omg_a]

erm...what's blackletter teaching??

 

[Ziff]

The subtext to that is "anyone got any ideas about ANU?"

 

[Frigid]

erm...what's blackletter teaching??

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=blackletter

without having to write a 50-page essay on jurisprudence, essentially blackletter teaching is the teaching of law as it stands: the relevant legislation, principles, case law. It implies that there is no teaching of policy considerations, social values and other extrinsic values.

Compare the UNSW Crim 1 and 2 outline to the UTS Crim outline, and you'll see the difference.

subtext Ziff? you know ANU is the best goddamn uni in Australia. end of story.

 

[Ziff]

I meant that Omg_A also wants to go to ANU I think. I know that it's on par with, but does anyone know of the teaching style?

 

[Suvat]

looks like its similar to usyd in terms of it being lecture/tut

Are you deliberately trying to shitstir all the usyd law students or something? I've already posted twice in this thread that usyd uses small group teaching, and you even quoted one of them!

 

[MoonlightSonata]

My two cents:

(a) I would say that UNSW law is just as good as USyd law, and UNSW has ALL small group teaching for law, rather than the lecture/tutorial system that is widely used for USyd undergraduate studies. You would also come out with a greater social understanding of the law.

(b) However if you got into USyd, my recommendation would be to go there for 2 reasons:
- the prestige is greater
- the campus is better
I am being honest with you here, I would not just bag my own uni. The truth is they are both very good, but if you had a slight edge in terms of prestige, why not take it?

(c) I know a solicitor who told me that some big firms often only ever take on graduates from USyd and UNSW, and a few firms primarily only from USyd, and as for himself, he only takes on USyd honours students.

(d) Whatever uni you goto, the grades are extremely important as well. Employers often go back and look through your results - obviously if you've got Credit averages in a USyd law degree, a UTS honours law student will trump you.

(e) These are of course only academic factors - who you know is important in the business, among other things like people skills, oral skills, etc

---------------------------

As for this theory/practical argument, I shall not get involved

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Yes ive also heard the same...marks are important...but how come some of the big law firms take unsw and usyd guys and gals...what happened to all the D people at maqu?

Well 'often' being the operative word, 'big' being the other

Yes maqu - if you have the marks I'm sure that'd raise the bar

Might I also add that if somehow USyd's ancient quadrangle building was demolished, their edge in prestige may very well go down with it