Teacher Pay Increases (4 Viewers)

[um..]

then why did they give an extra 7% to the catholic schools?

 

[um..]

nah well the last time public teachers recieved an interim pay rise of the size they're asking for (5.5%) was in ah...1970

 

[johnson]

well, my friend's mum is a teacher
and she says that they now get 48k starting salary, and 70k if they've worked for 7 years onwards.

i think that is quite fair, i mean, they got a hell of a pay rise increase since about 10 years ago since it was only 28k, and 28k is very unreasonable.

70k is a lot to be getting paid just for 7 years experience, and 48k is also quite good for a starting salary compared to other professions.

but, i also think that nurses should be getting a lot more than they do, yet they do not strike anywhere near as much. but that is a different issue.

 

[um..]

Originally posted by Asquithian
are u sure...im pretty sure teachers got a pay rise back when we were doing the hsc...ie the strikes

they were only minor increases, im talking about a substantial increase like this one thats in line with what was ordered by the (government appointed) industrial relations comittee

 

[KeypadSDM]

If they don't want to teach because of low wages, get a different job.

If they want to teach because they love it, then they don't need a pay rise.

 

[lengstar]

how about people who get off at being a lawyer? why the hell are they paid so much anyways?

 

[iambored]

Originally posted by Asquithian
are u suggesting teachers should get paid the same as lawyers?

no!! i was just pointing out that your argument was that lawyers get almost the same amount, but you were comparing starting of one type and ending of the other type. they should not get the same amount at all

 

[neo o]

Originally posted by johnson

but, i also think that nurses should be getting a lot more than they do, yet they do not strike anywhere near as much. but that is a different issue.

Logistically, it's alot harder for nurses to strike. Nurses leaving patients in hospitals would cause a crisis situation, and any industrial action needs to be managed carefully. Imagine nurses making a snap strike . When teachers walks off the job nowhere near as many problems are created.

 

[400miles]

Originally posted by KeypadSDM
If they don't want to teach because of low wages, get a different job.

If they want to teach because they love it, then they don't need a pay rise.

Yeah, nice logic...
Again, my story about my mum's friend... Mum taught with a man who loved teaching, but due to the low income was unable to support his family and was forced to quit teaching and go into real estate...

What do you suggest he do?

Originally posted by Asquithian

are u suggesting teachers should get paid the same as lawyers?

Most definately. And for the person who said a teacher with 7 years experience could get 70k a year..... My dad is a deputy with 15 years experience and doesn't get 70k at all.... not near 70... more like 60

 

[400miles]

Originally posted by Asquithian
and 60 000 is so shit

'

compared to people with that kind of experience in a huge number of other jobs.... yeah it's shit...

in regards to the amount of work and the huge amount of stress that comes with being a deputy principal... yeah it's shit...

 

[400miles]

Originally posted by Asquithian
Tell your father to leave...nothing stopping him?

Oh great solution. "Hey Dad, why don't you throw away something you've been doing for fifteen years that you love? That'll solve your problem of feeling as though your underpaid..."
Somehow I don't think at 48 - when he's doing a job he loves - I don't think he wants to go to uni or whatever get another degree and start another job in which he has no experience.

And that's a stupid solution anyway. When Francis Ona in Bougainville complained about the mine ruining the land and relationships of the indigenous people should we have said "Hey Frances, you dont like it? Move somewhere else!"... When Aboriginal people felt contempt at the fact their children were being stolen should we have told them "Hey guys, this might be a problem for you, but if you don't like it, then don't have kids?"
If someone vandalises your car, smashing in all the windows and you don't like it, should we say "Hey man, chill out, you don't like it, then don't own a car".

Impractical, yes?

And if "get another job" is the message we're sending out then there's going to be an even bigger teacher shortage than there already is which would end up catastrophic... If there was too much of a teacher shortage schools would end up closing and a lot of people would be stuffed up.

As for your last post... "You should do your job even if you think you are underpaid"... My parents - even though they're underpaid - DO do their jobs... except for one day that my mum striked...

"i recon 50 000 or so and quite reasonable. In fact its alot of money. "
try bringing up a family on that wage. Let me again bring up for the third time my story:

Originally posted by 400miles

Again, my story about my mum's friend... Mum taught with a man who loved teaching, but due to the low income was unable to support his family and was forced to quit teaching and go into real estate...

What do you suggest he do?

It's all very well for you to sit here and say teacher's aren't worth the pay rise they're asking for but all you've given us is that SOME teacher's don't do their jobs very well; that other jobs deserve more money as well (which they do! but so do teachers); and that YOU think 50k a year is good...

I think until you have first hand experience as to what being a teacher on such a low wage is right (like I have had growing up in a family of teachers) you will have no idea how underpaid they are.

 

[400miles]

By the way this is what I edited in my last post:

Originally posted by 400miles

And that's a stupid solution anyway. When Francis Ona in Bougainville complained about the mine ruining the land and relationships of the indigenous people should we have said "Hey Frances, you dont like it? Move somewhere else!"... When Aboriginal people felt contempt at the fact their children were being stolen should we have told them "Hey guys, this might be a problem for you, but if you don't like it, then don't have kids?"
If someone vandalises your car, smashing in all the windows and you don't like it, should we say "Hey man, chill out, you don't like it, then don't own a car".

Impractical, yes?

 

[400miles]

Originally posted by Asquithian
Well if he loves it so much whats all the winging about the money. 60 00 is more than many well actually most people get.

if both people are earning in excess of 50 000 each you should be able to raise a a family if you are prudent. Ie dont spend all your money on fancy cars or eat out all the time.

I have no idea how well your mother teaches.
she may be good she may have no idea...no idea sorry.

No we don't have fancy cars and we hardly eat out... we barely get through and we're in debt...
I do know how my mother teaches... and it's great... and it's not just me saying this cos shes my mum, she's a passionate, great teacher.

60000 is less than many, actually most, people with 15 years experience in MANY other professions get.

 

[400miles]

Originally posted by Asquithian
teachers will only receive higher levels of pay if they subject themselves to the conditions that most other workers are subject to in private employment.

Public sector service jobs are lowly paid for a number of reasons a number of which were discussed in this thread earlier.

I cannot see how a teacher could ever justify 70 000 a year and 12 weeks holidays. As to the level and difficulty of the word - thats a subjective interpretation. In my opinion i do not think the level of work that teachers have to do even approaches that of other professions.

The after hours work again IMO is also not of a high level. again pruely subjective. But marking yr 10 maths papers or setting exams or doing reports is onerous but not extremely onerous.

See I don't know how you can say any of this... you have no idea what it's like to be a teacher... Until, like I said, you have first hand experience with it then none of this is relevant... You can't justify your opinion because you're unable to back it up.... All of it is you thinking that teacher's jobs are bludgy

I've grown up with teachers and their job is not bludgey

 

[400miles]

Originally posted by Asquithian
well by your standards you may think it may be hard work...when iwas in school (yes my mum works at school) i thought teachers worked really hard and deserved more...

I got out of school and relsied how easy (again my opinion) the job was. When i got out there and experienced other professions and saw them for myself IMO based on my observations teaching does not compare in terms of how stretched you would be.

Id have to say being a 2nd year uni student would involve more work than teaching. (again my opinion)

There's really no point in continuing this... as you see throughout your entire post it's all just opinion... and the arguments are just being recycled over and over... no point in arguing

 

[Generator]

Has anyone 'against' the teachers taken note of the importance of what we learn at school?

It is a difficult job, Asquithian. How would you, with your law degree, handle 22 7 year olds who see the classroom as an indoor sports centre? Or 18 15 year old 'teenagers' who do not seem to take note of anything that you say? Sure, it is not that bad at all times and in every school, yet maintaining control (on its own) is far more difficult than you seem to believe.

If you are going to carry on with this argument, do not take the path of claiming that teaching is 'not that difficult' when compared to other professions. It does not make sense.


Edit: You raise a good point concerning class sizes, yet how are we to get to such a situation if the profession remains at its current level of both recognition and pay?

 

[Generator]

Basically, increasing the levels of pay would entice a greater number of people to enter the profession (you would assume that higher levels of pay would also entice those more 'suited' to the role), which would lower class sizes. It may also keep a number of disillusioned teachers interested and within the profession, too. That would all improve the standing of teachers (not overnight). Also, is there any point in improving the facilities when the teachers themselves are not being recognised?

As um.. said, money is what drives today's world.

 

[Generator]

Originally posted by Asquithian
My dear generator...you should be able to control 22 seven year olds...its in your job description.

Basic training can see you through that...if you hgave ever done any coaching for sport or whatever...it really isnt THAT hard. (again IMO)

Coaching a sport (for a few hours a week with the mum and dad watching from the sideline) is not teaching.

I am well aware of teachers being unable to maintain control (partly due to bureaucratic hassles). My mum recently told me that it took five weeks for her class to be firmly under her thumb (with 20 years experience, too), and the school itself is rife with tales of executive teachers unable to control their own students. Remember that these are people with many years under their belt, generally well qualified and respected within the system. But, with a mum as a teacher I am aware of the regularity of such situations (within this particular school, at least).

I obviously see it as being more difficult than you do. Ah well. (I did see the IMOs).

 

[Generator]

Originally posted by Asquithian
Money should not drive teaching its a noble profession. I hope that there are still some people out there who get a kick out of teaching....i know some of my teachers did.

You spend 4 to 5 years at university for your degree to enter a profession with a salary that plateaus, yet other professions may see their rates of pay skyrocket. It is a noble profession, but that counts for little when such nobility is not recognised.

Edit: Hehe this has carried on for some time.

Most complaints that I am aware of are a result of proposals for salary and funding levels to be tied to academic performance (rather than progress). The pay issue in general is only an aside.

 

[Ziff]

Because I am pissed off with my incompetent English department I am going to write a tirade:

My god, why the hell do teachers want a payrise?! They seriously do no deserve it and here is the principal reason: programmes

All they have to do is grab the syllabus, write up a programme, photocopy a few handouts and guess what?! THEY CAN REUSE THIS FOR OVER A DECADE

WOAH! That's a fantastic amount of work right there isn't it? It's very low on the order of bloom's taxonomy, it's essentially recounting. There's no need for anything higher. At least people in decent professions such as lawyers, doctors (medical and surgical), nurses etc need to use their minds, make critical judgements, synthesise huge amounts of information and analyse cases etc.

Teaching is on par with being a secretary. What do secretaries do? They read and type, they read and speak (on the phone), they file documents and proof-read them. What do teachers do? Practically the same thing! They read the textbook, sometimes summarise it and then read it out to the class. They take your work and essentially proof-read it whilst searching for quotes and words that look similar to what is in the textbook to give you marks. WOW!

It's even better when they don't do any of that! They have a simple topic that they've had 3 years to refine and they can't get it right, hell , they know next to nothing about it! It's only in the last fleeting moments of the HSC year before the trial that they pull their pants up, go online and print off a thousand copies of documents that they should have given us at the beginning of the year! And this is what they want a payrise for?!

The teacher's job is the help their students get the HIGHEST possible mark and UAI possible. It is not their job to fuck you around. Many teachers seem to enjoy fucking you around, not giving you vital information and not bothing to explain vital concepts instead expecting you to "figure it out". By doing this they are shirking their responsibilities and they are effectively and clearly stating "hey, we don't need a payrise because it's clear that we're inept and don't give a rats arse about the final outcome for our students".

On the other hand some teachers do deserve it. Some teachers, even though they are reusing the same material at least attempt to make it interesting, fill your pages with useful comments, explain topics and concepts in detail - enough to write a decent essay from and don't expect you to go fluttering around the internet and libraries to find information. These teachers do deserve better pay, if only marginally, and some more recognition.

Essentially, the highest paid teachers (with co-ordinator status) get from $60,000 to $64,000 a year. If they are a sole income earner and supporting a family of 4 then this is not a lot of money. If, however, there is a second income it is more than adequate, infact, I know of many dual income earners (usually a teacher/teacher pairing) who have many investments including houses, shares, bonds etc. I don't see why they need anymore for the lack of work many of them accomplish and the little skill it really involves.

End polemic.