The Abortion Debate (continued) (3 Viewers)

[Kwayera]

Here's a question about souls:

The general concensus that I've seen so far is that people whe believe in souls believe that a soul "comes into" an egg or something at the moment of fertilisation.

Well, what about identical twins? They start off as a single egg, and then much later split into two separate foetuses. Do they share that single soul?

 

[Besodeiah]

Here's a question about souls:

The general concensus that I've seen so far is that people whe believe in souls believe that a soul "comes into" an egg or something at the moment of fertilisation.

Well, what about identical twins? They start off as a single egg, and then much later split into two separate foetuses. Do they share that single soul?

I think they fight to the death for the soul. Sucks to be the twin that ends up in limbo, mang.


















Souls. What a ridiculous concept. Another ploy by religious freaks to try and justify our existence on this earth, and to justify their ridiculous claims of a God and a heaven.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

I have a different belief system to you though, & I am not sold on evolution...but thats ok.

creationist found!

 

[Kwayera]

Someone should create one of those inspirational pics with "CREATIONIST ALERT" on it.

 

[Besodeiah]

Someone should create one of those inspirational pics with "CREATIONIST ALERT" on it.

http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/creationism-globe.jpg

?

 

[Kwayera]

That is FANTASTIC!

 

[KFunk]

I have a different belief system to you though, & I am not sold on evolution...but thats ok.
I wonder if all animals have souls? I'd like to think they did...

Technical issues regarding souls:

- As Kwayera mentioned, identical twins start off as a single zygote. Do two seperate souls simply occupy the one zygote at once? Does a single soul split into two? Does a second soul simply appear at the time of spliting?

- Split brain cases are troublesome for those arguing for a unitary immaterial mind/soul. In many documented cases the seperate hemispheres, after having the corpus collosum severed, exhibit contrary goals and aims, e.g. the right hand will try to pick a blue shirt out of the wardrobe while the left hand picks a green shirt, or one hand does up a zipper while the other hand undoes it. In other words the hemispheres seem to lack unity, as though there are now two persons coinhabiting one body. I am unsure how this phenomenon can be explained with recourse to 'the soul'.

- Neurological syndromes due to focal damage are also problematic. E.g. it is possible to loose colour vision, or the ability to recognise faces, or the ability to acknowledge the 'left side of the world', or one's social inhibitions. Note, then, that physical lesions can create major deficits in a person's experienced world. Essentially, all the things which seem to make a person a person, e.g. memories, beliefs, capacity for reason, temperament, moral conscience and so forth, seem to be susceptible to erasure by means of physical damage. Thus any theory of the soul which views such human capacities as dependent on the soul needs to be able to explain how such physical lesions can entirely interupt these supposedly 'immaterial' capacities.

 

[*TRUE*]

Technical issues regarding souls:

- As Kwayera mentioned, identical twins start off as a single zygote. Do two seperate souls simply occupy the one zygote at once? Does a single soul split into two? Does a second soul simply appear at the time of spliting?

- Split brain cases are troublesome for those arguing for a unitary immaterial mind/soul. In many documented cases the seperate hemispheres, after having the corpus collosum severed, exhibit contrary goals and aims, e.g. the right hand will try to pick a blue shirt out of the wardrobe while the left hand picks a green shirt, or one hand does up a zipper while the other hand undoes it. In other words the hemispheres seem to lack unity, as though there are now two persons coinhabiting one body. I am unsure how this phenomenon can be explained with recourse to 'the soul'.

- Neurological syndromes due to focal damage are also problematic. E.g. it is possible to loose colour vision, or the ability to recognise faces, or the ability to acknowledge the 'left side of the world', or one's social inhibitions. Note, then, that physical lesions can create major deficits in a person's experienced world. Essentially, all the things which seem to make a person a person, e.g. memories, beliefs, capacity for reason, temperament, moral conscience and so forth, seem to be susceptible to erasure by means of physical damage. Thus any theory of the soul which views such human capacities as dependent on the soul needs to be able to explain how such physical lesions can entirely interupt these supposedly 'immaterial' capacities.

I dont really know what a 'soul' is , never said I did, only queried how that person KNEW that there was no such thing as a soul.How does anyone KNOW anything was my point. But i think that a soul is considered a spiritual thing isnt it? or do people say it is a physical thing? I have no idea.

 

[KFunk]

How does anyone KNOW anything was my point.

What does 'knowledge' amount to for you, and why do you feel that we lack it?

 

[Kwayera]

Some news in the abortion/contraceptives front:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/health/chi-birthcontroljul31,0,6274737.story

HHS proposal fuels birth-control debate

WASHINGTON—A Bush administration proposal aimed at protecting health-care workers who object to abortion and birth-control methods they consider tantamount to abortion has escalated a bitter debate over the balance between religious freedom and patients' rights.

The Health and Human Services Department is reviewing a draft regulation that would deny federal funding to any hospital, clinic, health plan or other entity that does not accommodate employees who want to opt out of participating in care that runs counter to their personal convictions, including providing birth-control pills, intrauterine devices and the Plan B emergency contraceptive.

Conservative groups, abortion opponents and some members of Congress welcome the initiative as necessary to safeguard doctors, nurses and other health workers who, they say, are increasingly facing discrimination because of their beliefs or are being coerced into delivering services they find repugnant.

But the draft proposal has sparked intense criticism by family planning advocates, women's health activists and members of Congress who say the regulation would create overwhelming obstacles for women seeking abortions and birth control.

There also is deep concern that the rule could have far-reaching, but less obvious, implications. Because of its wide scope and because it would—apparently for the first time—define abortion in a federal regulation as anything that affects a fertilized egg, the regulation could raise questions about a broad spectrum of scientific research and care, critics say.

Critics charge that the proposal is the latest example of the administration politicizing science to advance ideological goals.

"They are manipulating the system by manipulating the definition of the word 'abortion,' " said Susan Wood, a professor at George Washington University who resigned from the Food and Drug Administration over delays in approving the non-prescription sale of Plan B.

The proposal has circulated among several HHS agencies. The FDA has not objected, but several National Institutes of Health officials said the agency had expressed serious concerns.

"This is causing a lot of distress," said one NIH researcher who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "It's a redefinition of abortion that does not match any of the current medical definitions. ... [It] could interfere with the development of many new therapies to treat diseases."

Since a copy of the document leaked this month, outside advocates and scientists have voiced growing alarm that the regulation could inhibit research in areas including stem cells, infertility and even such unrelated fields as cancer.

Dozens of members of Congress have sent letters of protest to HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt. HHS officials declined to discuss the draft, saying it is in the very early stages of review.

 

[katie tully]

I just. You know, it's frustrating when you read things like this.

 

[*TRUE*]

What does 'knowledge' amount to for you, and why do you feel that we lack it?

Oh wow , im sorry i must not have ever seen this post.
I cant remember and dont have time to read back very far , but i think i was asking...do we have enough knowledge to really have moral absolutes?
I mean , you can argue either way really , but in the end , all still seems rather gray in many cases - subjective.

 

[Iron]

Oh wow , im sorry i must not have ever seen this post.
I cant remember and dont have time to read back very far , but i think i was asking...do we have enough knowledge to really have moral absolutes?
I mean , you can argue either way really , but in the end , all still seems rather gray in many cases - subjective.

Lol, true just made the arguement against God.
Will put ignore now.

 

[*TRUE*]

Lol, true just made the arguement against God.
Will put ignore now.

You are utterly stupid.
I referred to knowledge . Faith in God and Gods word is not dependant on having all the answers.
Having moral absolutes without a God is what is lame.

 

[KFunk]

but i think i was asking...do we have enough knowledge to really have moral absolutes?

Possibly not. There are some interesting arguments suggesting that moral absolutes are outside of our reach.

 

[*TRUE*]

Possibly not. There are some interesting arguments suggesting that moral absolutes are outside of our reach.

Thankyou Kieran.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Serious question: What happens to the corpse following an abortion? Is it crushed into a cube? Burned? Turned into blood & bone?

 

[Kwayera]

Serious question: What happens to the corpse following an abortion? Is it crushed into a cube? Burned? Turned into blood & bone?

Depends. Usually, I'd assume, it is discarded with the rest of the hospital's biological waste. After a certain age, though, I think there's a law somewhere that the body must be buried or at least afforded a "proper funeral", and indeed many people choose that.

 

[katie tully]

Depends on the age of the fetus and the wishes of the parents.

Cremated with other surgical waste usually, if unspecified.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

The idea of a baby being thrown out with the rest of the medical waste is absolutely repulsive.