The Abortion Debate (continued) (1 Viewer)

[charlesdinio]

Abortion should be legalised for particular circumstances, the real problem is that there is no way it can be monitored.

If you have sex and you use a condom, you're obviously trying to avoid pregnancy, thats what it does, however if it breaks, you have created something which you have not wanted to. You have not considered its care, you haven't considered financial situations etc, therefore the kids life wouldnt be the best.

Abortion in a situation like this in my opinion should be completely fine.

And while im here, anything regarding rape or anything duress related should also be aborted.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

That's bull. Sometimes the condom breaks, even when it's put on properly. Sometimes the pill just fails, even when it has been taken correctly.

Yes and both instances are well known. There are no excuses for not knowing the consequences.

Fail.

 

[Miffstaa]

I understand the moral and legal implications though. Women are allowed to abort their fetuses but murder is considered as illegal. So the big question comes back to when life actually begins. is it during conception, during the guidelines shown in Byron's law or when we take our first breath?

 

[black_kat_meow]

Yes and both instances are well known. There are no excuses for not knowing the consequences.

Fail.

I wasn't denying knowlege of the consequences, simply correcting his statement.

So you fail.

 

[charlesdinio]

Yes and both instances are well known. There are no excuses for not knowing the consequences.

Fail.

Put aside the consequences - there was no intention to create human life

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Um, yeah but like, you still knew what you were doing, you know?

I understand the moral and legal implications though. Women are allowed to abort their fetuses but murder is considered as illegal.

whoa man really?

 

[Miffstaa]

whoa man really?

yeah took me a while

 

[xONBROKENWINGSx]

Put aside the consequences - there was no intention to create human life

people who have sex ultimately accept all of its implications

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

people who have sex ultimately accept all of its implications

Indeed. You can't have sex and claim "Oh I didn't know sex makes babies!"

 

[charlesdinio]

people who have sex ultimately accept all of its implications

But I mean, ask yourself.. why do you wear a condom? You dont wan't to create life. thats the only reason.

Now say you do create life, for all you know that person is a young labourer living in the struggle - what kind of life is the kid going to have, for a family COMPLETELY unprepared and unable to support it?

And it all comes back to the question as to "did they want the child?", No, he wore a condom.

You say it has consequences, it's meant to be - there are consequences for not wearing a condom. regardless whether it breaks or not, they had the intention of a good time, with no implications afterward.

 

[black_kat_meow]

But I mean, ask yourself.. why do you wear a condom? You dont wan't to create life. thats the only reason.

Now say you do create life, for all you know that person is a young labourer living in the struggle - what kind of life is the kid going to have, for a family COMPLETELY unprepared and unable to support it?

And it all comes back to the question as to "did they want the child?", No, he wore a condom.

You say it has consequences, it's meant to be - there are consequences for not wearing a condom. regardless whether it breaks or not, they had the intention of a good time, with no implications afterward.

I'm not against abortion, but still, people should realise pregnancy is a possibility arising out sex. Don't like the "intention of a good time" part either, it shouldn't be taken so lightly.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

But I mean, ask yourself.. why do you wear a condom? You dont wan't to create life. thats the only reason.

and?

Now say you do create life, for all you know that person is a young labourer living in the struggle - what kind of life is the kid going to have, for a family COMPLETELY unprepared and unable to support it?

somewhat better quality of life than being dead

And it all comes back to the question as to "did they want the child?", No, he wore a condom.

THIS.
DOESN'T.
MATTER.

You've missed the point! Again! If you have sex, and you do (I assume), you know what could happen! It doesn't matter a hair width whether or not they wanted one or not, they engaged in an activity that they FULL WELL knew could land them with a baby.

I realise that there are situations that differ to this, as Kwayera regularly (and systematically) points out. Rape, for example. I'd prefer to debate the norms before the outliers though.

 

[charlesdinio]

and?



somewhat better quality of life than being dead



THIS.
DOESN'T.
MATTER.

You've missed the point! Again! If you have sex, and you do (I assume), you know what could happen! It doesn't matter a hair width whether or not they wanted one or not, they engaged in an activity that they FULL WELL knew could land them with a baby.

I realise that there are situations that differ to this, as Kwayera regularly (and systematically) points out. Rape, for example. I'd prefer to debate the norms before the outliers though.

haha sorry I dont use this enough to know how to quote properly..

although it is better than being dead, a fetus doesn't have a memory. I dont remember well from when I was 4.. let alone in my mums stomach!

And yeah, if you do have sex you know theres like a 1% chance or something small of it happening, however why should an individual be burdened with a kid if they really didn't want it? As if you wouldn't feel more sorry for the kid after being born, than after being aborted when it wont remember anything, and arguably isn't a human yet. All my sciencey mates rip into me for saying they arn't human yet, but cmon! its so not. (i have nothing scientific)

I really understand your argument, it makes sense, having sex brings with it the CHANCE of birth, but using protection and the such should act as a safety net, both physically and mentally. Physically.. yeah.. and mentally, I wouldnt feel half as bad if a girl i was with had to get an abortion if we used a condom, rather than if we were idiots.

 

[Empyrean444]

haha sorry I dont use this enough to know how to quote properly..

although it is better than being dead, a fetus doesn't have a memory. I dont remember well from when I was 4.. let alone in my mums stomach!

And yeah, if you do have sex you know theres like a 1% chance or something small of it happening, however why should an individual be burdened with a kid if they really didn't want it? As if you wouldn't feel more sorry for the kid after being born, than after being aborted when it wont remember anything, and arguably isn't a human yet. All my sciencey mates rip into me for saying they arn't human yet, but cmon! its so not. (i have nothing scientific)

I really understand your argument, it makes sense, having sex brings with it the CHANCE of birth, but using protection and the such should act as a safety net, both physically and mentally. Physically.. yeah.. and mentally, I wouldnt feel half as bad if a girl i was with had to get an abortion if we used a condom, rather than if we were idiots.

First of all, i see the foetus from being alive at conception. It will grow into a human, it has true potential for not only life, but for a truly unique and individual life. It has started forming as an individual, therefore i see its abortion as murder.

This is not about its "memory". A baby doesn't have much of a memory, but does that make killing it alright? Of course not! Or when you were 4, and, as you said, you don't remember anything about it. That doesn't make killing it fine.

By aborting it, you deny it that privilege both you and i have, that it, the boon of life, of being able to experience life. By aborting it, rather than doing it a good because it won't remember, you do it an evil by denying it the chance or developing a memory. As has been said before, better some life than no life at all. Better a small glimmer of existence, even if it is harrowing and painful, than the abyssal depths of oblivion!

 

[xONBROKENWINGSx]

haha sorry I dont use this enough to know how to quote properly..

although it is better than being dead, a fetus doesn't have a memory. I dont remember well from when I was 4.. let alone in my mums stomach!

And yeah, if you do have sex you know theres like a 1% chance or something small of it happening, however why should an individual be burdened with a kid if they really didn't want it? As if you wouldn't feel more sorry for the kid after being born, than after being aborted when it wont remember anything, and arguably isn't a human yet. All my sciencey mates rip into me for saying they arn't human yet, but cmon! its so not. (i have nothing scientific)

I really understand your argument, it makes sense, having sex brings with it the CHANCE of birth, but using protection and the such should act as a safety net, both physically and mentally. Physically.. yeah.. and mentally, I wouldnt feel half as bad if a girl i was with had to get an abortion if we used a condom, rather than if we were idiots.

you cant live on intentions. You cant have sex, knowing the full implications, and then say 'whoops! i didnt mean to' when you get pregnant. Also, any person of the average intelligence knows the risk of condoms, having a 98% chance of success or something along those lines. Dont want to create life? dont have sex.
A foetus is its own lifeforce just inside the mothers body.

 

[lyounamu]

That's bull. Sometimes the condom breaks, even when it's put on properly. Sometimes the pill just fails, even when it has been taken correctly.

What I am saying is that the chance of that purely based on probability is highly unlikely. The user of the contraceptive equipments is most likely to have misused it (or wrongly applied the use of it). If condom breaks, don't just use it, postpone your "fun time". If you are aware of the chance that the pill wouldn't work, go for both pills and condom or some other contraceptives. It's not like you can only use one at a time. There are always ways around it.

 

[Kwayera]

By aborting it, you deny it that privilege both you and i have, that it, the boon of life, of being able to experience life. By aborting it, rather than doing it a good because it won't remember, you do it an evil by denying it the chance or developing a memory. As has been said before, better some life than no life at all. Better a small glimmer of existence, even if it is harrowing and painful, than the abyssal depths of oblivion!

I hope you don't eat meat.


I guess for me it never comes back to "life" as in when the egg and sperm meet and a genetically distinct organism is created. Yes, that is life, but I have no more responsibility to it than the steak I ate for dinner last night (and arguably, the mashed potatoes). For me it comes back to the ideas of sapience and sentience, neither of which a foetus has (before a certain age) and both of which my steak had (depending on your definitions of the terms).

A foetus is not self-conscious, has no self-awareness, is not sentient and is certainly not sapient. The fact that it has the potential to be doesn't come into it for me - how do I know that the steak I ate (or more appropriately to the context, the veal schnitzel I had a couple of days ago) didn't have the potential to be the first self-aware, self-conscious, sapient and sentient cow? I didn't, but that doesn't really matter because I don't have any romantic notions regarding potentiality or the sacredity of life.

 

[Iron]

lol so a cow's life is just as invaluable as a humans'?
Or you dont care about the child's potential life, because who can say HOW valuable that life will be?

Charming!

 

[Kwayera]

It's not that, no. I just don't have any romantic notions about speciesism, and neither is it about value - or are you saying that human potential always is > than other animal potential?

How speciesist of you!

 

[Iron]

I see it so clearly now! We are all equal! Man and woman, human and animal, intelligent and dumb, hardworking and lazy!

Please! Carry on with your insightful anaology: having an abortion is like eating a fine steak!
Sounds yum!
I am so goddamn charmed right now!