The Abortion Debate... (1 Viewer)

[MoonlightSonata]

Now back on-topic, I think the idea of when life starts is not what should be focussed upon. The majority of the people in this thread have acknowledged, whether they believe that the fetus/embryo is alive or not, that terminating a fetus/embryo is a terrible thing to have to do, and the issue of whether this terrible action is morally (or potentially legally) justifiable is what should be focussed on. Personally, I think it is justifiable, despite the (hopefully very few) people who abuse the right to abortion.

Yeah this is the second part of the argument I was trying to bring up

A lot of people spend their time arguing whether the foetus is a person and then just assume that if it is a person, it is automatically wrong

 

[crazyhomo]

The death penalty is for those that are so horrendous, they can never be rehabilitated.
This is no way conflicts with opposing the killing of a baby.

so you believe that murder, the intentional, planned killing of a person, is not always morally wrong? there are situations where it is right to kill someone?

 

[thejosiekiller]

Yeah this is the second part of the argument I was trying to bring up

A lot of people spend their time arguing whether the foetus is a person and then just assume that if it is a person, it is automatically wrong

i think most people agree that the embryo/fortus/unborn child is a living thing- whether or not to call it human and say abortion is wrong for these reasons depends on every person

 

[girlanachronism]

What is the point of jail? To rehabilitate criminals so that they may rejoin society. Please, I didn't do Legal Studies, so make your legal studies objections.
The death penalty is for those that are so horrendous, they can never be rehabilitated.
This is no way conflicts with opposing the killing of a baby.


I'll get back to the 'what is life?' thing later.

What about life sentences?
While there certainly is an emphasis on rehabilition (which I think is a good thing! though not necessarily effective the way it is occuring now), jail is also a means of punishment.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I agree with all ur points earlier... it is a living thing, it is a human and abortion is the murder of that human. HOWEVER it is one of the few occassions where murder IS acceptable.

As for the whole deal with death sentences... I only call upon the death sentence for people who are openly guilty, have several witnesses or whatever, murdered/raped numerous people..... What's wrong with that? It will bring some pleasure to the victims families.

 

[girlanachronism]

Actually, statistically it rarely does. Also there is always the margin of error and as long as there is a chance that an innocent person will be executed (there is always this chance) I cannot and will nto support it.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

let me see these stats that say victims families who's family member's murderer was killed say they wish he wasn't killed....

Of course families will say 'this doesn't help much', they just had their son, wife, husband, daughter killed...

I'm talking about occassions where they are eye witnesses, the murderer claims to be guilty, and they've commited the worst crimes imaginable...

 

[thejosiekiller]

prison is not as effective as it should be- its punishment that the public does not see or do we want to at times.... the amount of rehabilitation is probably minimal for repeat offenders who have been involved with crime for their entire life, its all they know.

 

[girlanachronism]

I read those stats in a book I read on Leonard Peltier a few years back. I don't get all my information off the internet, its too unreliable.

You do realise that there is no way the death penalty will be limited to cases where the defendant admits to their own guilt, right? Like, it's a great idea and all, but it just won't happen.

http://freepeltier.org
Although Leonard isn't on death row, he has been imprisioned for more than 2 decades for a crime he did not commit. Since his initial trial it has been proven that his weapon did not fire the bullets which killed/injured the men in question and much of the testimony of one of the key witnesses was illegally extradited. He is Native American, which is by far the most marginalised group in the USA, and is one of many cases where the law comes down much harder on an ethnic minority.

here are some more resources:
http://www.lib.msu.edu/harris23/crimjust/death.htm

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=105&scid=5
" According to the findings of a Governor-commissioned death penalty study conducted by researchers at the University of Maryland, the state's death penalty system is tainted with racial bias, and geography plays a significant role in who faces a capital conviction. The study, one of the nation's most comprehensive official reviews on race and the death penalty, concluded that defendants are much more likely to be sentenced to death if they have killed a white person."

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

i keep reading contraception, it's conception

sorri.. typing notes on birth control.. :$ wasnt paying full attention lolz

but amoebas and plants don't have hearts or brains. the heart and brain isn't all there is to being alive. what there is to being alive however, i don't know

yer ure right but earlier i was talking about metabolism as a sign of life.. viruses arent self sustainable and biologist dunno how to define life.. but here i was talking bout ppl in hospitals.. once the brain stem is no longer functional... and the heart isnt pumping.. usualli they are called dead..

but i agree.. if u abuse abortion rights.. u should goto hell ..
and IMO its case-by-case .. im not a lawyer or law student ... but wat i do kno is that.. each state has different laws but most require 2 doctors to approve to terminate a late pregnancy (~25 weeks).. full term is 40 weeks.. i think thats bout one of the only good things..

 

[girlanachronism]

actually you're considered to be at full term at ~37-38 weeks

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I don't think it should be limited to people who admit their own guilt....some people are crazy and admit guilt to crimes they don't commit...
I believe the death penalty should be out there for the worst crimes tho... In australia a guy could murder, rape and kill 2000 people and when he gets caught recieve a life sentence...

I read those stats in a book I read on Leonard Peltier a few years back. I don't get all my information off the internet, its too unreliable.

Was the wording tho... that families REGRET the death of their killer, or that they didn't take much pleasure in it?

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

actually you're considered to be at full term at ~37-38 weeks

yep
full-term- A term that describes a baby born at some point between the 37th and 42nd weeks of gestation.
this is wat we use in the hospital.. i used the half mark..
but still its more than 50% done then aborted

 

[girlanachronism]

A guy could do that sure - has anyone actually done it?

As I said I read this book a few years back, but the gist of the section was that the argument about providing relief for the family is erroneous, as the majority of the families of victims in these cases feel it is an easy way out

 

[jm1234567890]

Is the debate should abortion be illegal full-stop or is it should government funded abortion be illegal?

 

[girlanachronism]

yep
full-term- A term that describes a baby born at some point between the 37th and 42nd weeks of gestation.
this is wat we use in the hospital.. i used the half mark..
but still its more than 50% done then aborted

sorry, I didn't realise that you do med

 

[girlanachronism]

Is the debate should abortion be illegal full-stop or is it should government funded abortion be illegal?

I think it's actually that the government shouldn't be funding them, although of course that's not what we wound up debating

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes, but i'm sure they also feel that the guy that raped, killed their daughter shouldn't be allowed to ever watch tv, or laugh or have fun...

 

[girlanachronism]

Yes, but i'm sure they also feel that the guy that raped, killed their daughter shouldn't be allowed to ever watch tv, or laugh or have fun...

ah! how is being quickly killed after years on death row any worse than spending life in prison? when you're dead you're dead, you don't know the difference. whereas with life in prison you still have the capacity for suffering

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

sorry, I didn't realise that you do med

haha ... nah its ok.. i still make mistakes.. i like to kno when i do
most important thing is that im accountable cos my exams require me to be able to recite that..